Drawbacks of Wharram Tiki or Pahi for Extended South Pacific Cruising

[Mike w]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Personally I would never buy a boat based around the needs of guests (freinds or family).

Partly(?!) because I am not a people person , but also I figure that if someone genuinely wants to spend time with me (rather than primarily seeking a freebie) they can either fit in with what I have available - or put hand in own pocket (not mine!) and use shore accomadation.

Haha, I am the same way. Just thinking about other people's needs. Most people have wild dreams of being the center of attention and it will be the best place in the world to hang out on creating these awesome parties etc.

For me the boat is a tool to get away from everyone, but I do like being with two other people ideally. Then no one is stuck having to talk to the same person for hours on end 3 on a boat is best for me, and they have to be 2 other people I really want to be with at that.

Otherwise leave me alone. hahaha.

[wongai64]

Im looking to buy a cat or a tri in the near future. Currently researching EVERYTHING! I keep getting told that Wharrams wont sail windward but cant get any clarification on how far off the wind that means? Can any one help me with general knowledge on Wharram cats, build quality, performance etc etc

Thanks

[boatsmith]

First off I build custom boats. I am also associated with James Wharram Designs as their authorized US professional builder. We also build other boats, but I really like Warrams.

Wharram designs his boats to fit a specific set of wants/needs. Not all of theses will fit everybody. Most of his boats have been built by amateurs, many of them with little or no sailing experience. The boats are frequently built with a low budget mentality. This can result in a boat built as cheap as possible by someone with crappy building skills and no seatime. Not too much of a surprise that the boats don't sail well to weather. A packing crate will sail downwind.
That being said the boats are certainly not designed with pointing ability as the first priority. We built a Tiki 30 to very high standards with Wharrams stock rig.
In flat water the boat would tack through about 110 degrees. It would sail higher but the speed fell quickly and the leeway increased a lot. If outside and the wind is light and the sea is up going to weather sucks. About like a Westsai l32 with baggy old sails. I have done coastal races here in Fl and won going down wind on Sat. and finished DFL upwind the on Sun.
The Wharrams will sail to their abilities in very shallow water. They don't have boards and the rudders are protected and they can take the ground with ease. There aren't a lot of offshore boats that can sail at 10 nots or more in under 3' of water. They have a very strong reputation as being very seaworthy vessels as designed.
We have been tweaking some of James' designs a bit. Some things they approve of and others they don't care for. We have omitted the skeg and gone with a kick-up rudder on some of the T26's we built. This provided better maneuverability in reverse under power. Additional benefits are much easier tacking and easier to back off a mud bank without the rudders digging in. Cons are that the rudders are not quite as bomb proof. We also went with a taller contemporary rig with more sail area. These are working craft and the passengers are paying for a sailboat ride. If it blows too hard they don't go, but when it blows lighter they can still sail.
We are now building a 47' Wharram Ariki of foam cored glass. The first boat will be very true to Wharram's vision. That is what the client wants. The second boat is for a client who wants a boat that will sail faster and higher and is willing to spend more money and accept the trade offs involved. His boat will have a wider beam and in board cassette rudders, curved daggerboards, a big roach full battened main and a retractable carbon sprit to fly head sails from. Different boats for different clients. One will certainly sail faster both on and off the wind, but it will cost substantially more and require more maintence over its lifespan.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by wongai64

Im looking to buy a cat or a tri in the near future. Currently researching EVERYTHING! I keep getting told that Wharrams wont sail windward but cant get any clarification on how far off the wind that means? Can any one help me with general knowledge on Wharram cats, build quality, performance etc etc

Thanks

+1 to what David said. There is a nice used Wharram he build for sail ($US65k), but probably a little to small for your needs.

Years ago I spent a lot of time racing one designs, boats where every thing is the same except the skipper and crew. There were always some guys who were faster and could point higher than anyone else. When I was racing sailboards I was always able to point higher than almost anyone else, to the great surprise of lots of women sailors (basically the lighter you are on a sailboard the higher you should be able to point).

There is no substitute for time with a tiller in one hand and a sheet in the other to develop a feel for just how high you can point while maintaining good speed. As David posted there are a lot of Wharrams build and sailed by folks who have never sailed before.

This is not to say there is no difference between how high different boats can point, or how fast they are. Plain fact of the matter is that there is a tradeoff with Wharrams. They are designed to be sturdy easy to beach sail in shallow water; a lot of other boats are designed with a center/dagger board and unprotected rudders that are more fragile but allow much higher pointing. The rig on most Wharrams is nowhere near as modern as the stock sails that come other boats and this hurts their pointing ability as well.

Bottom line is there are tradeoffs and compromises and you have to pick the boat that best fits your needs.

[kaimusailing]

I currently have a 44' Wharram that was customized such that it is no longer to spec. I had to sail it one time up a narrow inlet after the engine quit due to bad gas. Of course the wind was coming right down the inlet and I was handling the boat by myself. It is a cutter rig and I had already rolled up the jib and was sailing with the main and staysail. I believe this puts the center of pressure of the sails aft and makes rounding up and tacking much easier. Also this weather helm puts pressure on the rudder which acts to create lift to windward. I was able to sail up the inlet with numerous tacks, probably not as well as a fin keel boat, but I was able to use almost all of the width of the inlet while a fin keel would limit the width of the channel.
I first tried a Wharram almost 40 years ago when I rescued a rig and gear from an old sailboat that was rotting away. I was interested in the Wharram ads in the magazines, so I built a pair of 23' hulls and put a boat together with a sloop rig. It sailed well and answered my questions about how a Wharram would sail.
I bought an old Wharram Oro, 45', but when I contacted the Wharram design office, they said it was not from "their" plans and wouldn't support it like they would with one of their legal boats, postbuild. It was a bootleg series of plans sold by a guy in Texas. The boat was sluggish and had problems going to windward, but I think Wharram has improved his designs over the years and they sail better now.
There is a delicate balance of having enough sail area to drive the boat so that it generates some lift from the deep vee hull shape, or having too much area that overpowers the capabilities of the hull. This always happens when the wind dies and the boat is going 1 or 2 knots and making a ton of leeway. It needs to be moving to generate lift.
My current rig is a cutter with the mast in the center of the boat, about 400 sq ft in a full batten main, 300 sq ft in an overlapping staysail, and 500 sq ft in an overlapping genoa jib. In light airs, 5 to 10 knots, it is always sailing close hauled, unless you head dead downwind. I got the idea for the rig from an AYRS article by someone named Clay Yarborough from the Washington/Oregon area. I now suspect that his article was a hoax and he never tried the rig on a full sized boat, just on some scale models.
Recently, just the week before Easter, Ann and Neville Clement had left Florida to Rhode Island. They normally poke along, although they like to keep up the velocity if another boat is going the same way. This time they had a family emergency up in Rhode Island and put the pedal to the metal. 7 sailing days, not bad for two retirees. Gives me hope.