Do Cat Values Change by Location?

[beneteau-500]

Jostalli the broker is Gulliver yachts I will walk across later on an get there details and yes pretty sure four cabin version what I have seen here is yachts across the board have been priced down by 40%. From the original asking price

[robert sailor]

As far as the comment on overpriced Cats that are selling in Mexico...doesn't make sense. If something is overpriced it doesn't sell but if they are selling then they are selling at market price, whatever that is.

[Kokanee]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

There are a lot of good deals to be had in the Phuket/Langkawi area. Cruisers who may have sailed on through the Red Sea in the past are now selling when they get to Thailand.

I have also noticed people desperately trying to sell boats in Langkawi.

Very cheap compared to Australia, but so is Florida, and almost anywhere else.

Western Australia seems to be about the highest prices if you want to sell..

[ozsailer]

Hello all,
living in Australia I have to agree that Catamarans sold here are on the whole much more expensive than overseas. What some people forget is they go hunter for a cheaper cat overseas it may in fact work out dearer then buying one locally due to the cost of getting the boat here, the stamp duty and goods and services tax that are required and if required having the gas and electrical installations upgraded to meet Australian standards.
Having gone through the process of comparing prices of cats here and overseas it appeared to me that you would have to get an exceptional deal to make it worthwhile to undertake this method of purchase. I was very fortunate in that the price I finally paid for my Lagoon 410S2 was way below the normal asking price and in fact lower than the majority of Overseas boats.
I'm certainly not saying there are some good deals to be had overseas but you really have to do you home work to make it financially viable.


Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Whitsunday Islands Aus

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

I have also noticed people desperately trying to sell boats in Langkawi.

Very cheap compared to Australia, but so is Florida, and almost anywhere else.

As long as you don't intend to import it into Australia.

By the time you add transit time/costs from Langkawi and Duty and GST on arrival, you don't gain anything, especailly compared to a year ago when you look at how the AUD has gone against the Euro/USD that prices there are quoted in.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Kokanee

I have also noticed people desperately trying to sell boats in Langkawi.

Very cheap compared to Australia, but so is Florida, and almost anywhere else.

Western Australia seems to be about the highest prices if you want to sell..

In Florida, you find a lot of ex charter boats designed for the Caribbean, but correct me if I'm wrong that in Australia there are more boats designed to sail the Southern Oceans?

How do you put a price on a difference in quality?

[ozsailer]

Hello Tropic Cat,
I'm a bit confused over your comment regarding boats designed for the Southern Ocean. To my knowledge the only difference in a Catamaran designed for charter is the interior design. There may be a few particular models that are specifically designed for the Carribean and other tropical areas such as the latest Leopard 44 with an open cockpit with solid bimini but the vast majority have the same build quality regardless of where they are going to be sailed.
I would no more take a locally made catamaran or an imported catamaran into the southern ocean unless the conditions were suitable. If you were sailing in the Southern Ocean on a regular basis I would suggest that there have been serious modifications to the boat to make it more suitable for those conditions. In my opinion I would suggest that it really does not matter what ocean you sail in you will one day get caught out in really nasty conditions and äny" may succumb to these conditions. In a lot of cases its not the build of the vessel but the experience of the skipper and crew.
Would I take our Lagoon 410 around the bottom of Australia from Sydney to Perth in the Southern Ocean, you betcha but in the right conditions and as prepared as possible if it turned nasty. Would I take the new Leopard 44 with front open cockpit. I don't think so. Would I take other locally made Catamarans into the Southern Ocean. Dependant on the builder and quality, yep but for as many good boats there are always those I would not take off a wharf. As far as quality is concerned, even the best boat builders have build issues with quality not as important to me as structural integrity. In saying that quality is high up there but not at the top of my list.

Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Land down under

[weavis]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Hello Tropic Cat,
.........To my knowledge the only difference in a Catamaran designed for charter is the interior design. There may be a few particular models that are specifically designed for the Carribean and other tropical areas such as the latest Leopard 44 with an open cockpit with solid bimini but the vast majority have the same build quality regardless of where they are going to be sailed.
.............If you were sailing in the Southern Ocean on a regular basis I would suggest that there have been serious modifications to the boat to make it more suitable for those conditions.

Would I take our Lagoon 410 around the bottom of Australia from Sydney to Perth in the Southern Ocean, you betcha but in the right conditions and as prepared as possible if it turned nasty. Would I take the new Leopard 44 with front open cockpit. I don't think so.
............... As far as quality is concerned, even the best boat builders have build issues with quality not as important to me as structural integrity. In saying that quality is high up there but not at the top of my list.

Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Land down under

hi Greg and Sue
As far as I am aware, the Charter market boats have the same structural integrity via hull design and structural supports as a non charter vessel. I think in essence, both you and Tropic Cat are saying the same thing.

Charter catamarans are laid out according to the conditions of the cruising area, and for making it as comfortable as staying in a Condo.

For example, If I were to purchase an ex charter vessel from, say the B.V.I. and then brought it to Northern Europe, I would have to spend quite a bit of time altering the interior and exterior of the vessel to make it more weatherproof and heat retentive for the new heating system I would be installing. I would also have to beef up certain areas for the anchors and cleats, perhaps strengthen other components for the differences in cruising area, weather and sailing requirements.

I also would, prior to purchase, look hard at the design of the vessel, and see if, to quote your example, the Leopard 44 open front cockpit would suit the cruising area I had in mind. If my area was predominantly cold, it might not be a useful design feature. On the other hand, if my cruising area was to be Spain, Balearics, France Italy and Greece....... it would be ideal.

I have no experience with the Leopard design of this model at all, so cannot comment on the viability of the area for quick drainage... except to note that the Gunboat range have a similar open area, and they dont seem to be hindered in traversing the southern seas.

YOur comment regarding structural integrity, is one that I know we ALL agree on. Our personal experience with a brand or local knowledge of a cruising area has to be the guide for our own mental wellbeing in purchasing or operating a vessel in rough conditions. However the choice of a vessel might well be different because of that.

Best wishes

Gary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljq-dxmdItY#t=71

[ozsailer]

Hi Gary,
I totally agree with you in regard to what your requirements may be if you purchase a boat, charter or otherwise from a tropical destination. We are in fact doing exactly that in making changes to the Bimini, shade area's and installing a more modern and better anchoring system.
I hope it did not seem that I was critical of Tropical Cats post, just that I do not understand the comment on build quality related to the area you sail. From what I see, where ever you sail you are going to come up against severe foul weather at some time and we all hope that the structural integrity of each of our boats is more then capable of standing up the the stress's that may be placed upon it.
The Leopard 44 may well be an very very seaworthy boat but you are more likely to take a wave over the bow of your boat then be pooped and with the design of that particular boat I see a very large flat surface that would not deflect much of the wave and therefore take a large amount of pressure as well as an area that at the same time could fill with water. The drains may be very efficient and drain the water rapidly but it would still fill and I would imagine slow the boat considerably. I unabashedly state that I am no expert in this field and it is only my personal observations and thoughts and is not based on factual information be it positive or negative comment.
I don't want to go to far off the thread as I do agree that dependant on location Cat prices will vary quite a lot. Check yacht world which gives a pretty good picture of how prices vary from location to location. As always the condition and age of the boat will ultimately determine its worth. Then again a boat is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

Greg H

[weavis]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Hi Gary,
I totally agree with you in regard to what your requirements may be if you purchase a boat, charter or otherwise from a tropical destination. We are in fact doing exactly that in making changes to the Bimini, shade area's and installing a more modern and better anchoring system.
I hope it did not seem that I was critical of Tropical Cats post, just that I do not understand the comment on build quality related to the area you sail. From what I see, where ever you sail you are going to come up against severe foul weather at some time and we all hope that the structural integrity of each of our boats is more then capable of standing up the the stress's that may be placed upon it.
The Leopard 44 may well be an very very seaworthy boat but you are more likely to take a wave over the bow of your boat then be pooped and with the design of that particular boat I see a very large flat surface that would not deflect much of the wave and therefore take a large amount of pressure as well as an area that at the same time could fill with water. The drains may be very efficient and drain the water rapidly but it would still fill and I would imagine slow the boat considerably. I unabashedly state that I am no expert in this field and it is only my personal observations and thoughts and is not based on factual information be it positive or negative comment.
I don't want to go to far off the thread as I do agree that dependant on location Cat prices will vary quite a lot. Check yacht world which gives a pretty good picture of how prices vary from location to location. As always the condition and age of the boat will ultimately determine its worth. Then again a boat is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

Greg H

No problem at all Greg. Although we all speak the same language, the differences between American, Australian and British English can be confused in the translation
What boat do you have and what changes are you making? Enquiring minds want to know....

[Jim Woodall]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Hello Tropic Cat,
I'm a bit confused over your comment regarding boats designed for the Southern Ocean. To my knowledge the only difference in a Catamaran designed for charter is the interior design. There may be a few particular models that are specifically designed for the Carribean and other tropical areas such as the latest Leopard 44 with an open cockpit with solid bimini but the vast majority have the same build quality regardless of where they are going to be sailed.
I would no more take a locally made catamaran or an imported catamaran into the southern ocean unless the conditions were suitable. If you were sailing in the Southern Ocean on a regular basis I would suggest that there have been serious modifications to the boat to make it more suitable for those conditions. In my opinion I would suggest that it really does not matter what ocean you sail in you will one day get caught out in really nasty conditions and äny" may succumb to these conditions. In a lot of cases its not the build of the vessel but the experience of the skipper and crew.
Would I take our Lagoon 410 around the bottom of Australia from Sydney to Perth in the Southern Ocean, you betcha but in the right conditions and as prepared as possible if it turned nasty. Would I take the new Leopard 44 with front open cockpit. I don't think so. Would I take other locally made Catamarans into the Southern Ocean. Dependant on the builder and quality, yep but for as many good boats there are always those I would not take off a wharf. As far as quality is concerned, even the best boat builders have build issues with quality not as important to me as structural integrity. In saying that quality is high up there but not at the top of my list.

Greg and Sue
SV Sunshine
Land down under

Just a note on the Leopard 44. I agree it is not a boat "designed" for southern ocean sailing considering the front cockpit. It is certainly a cat designed for tropical locations and primarily trade wind sailing. However, a Leopard 44 was delivered a few months ago from Cape Town to Sydney by the southern ocean route, arriving completely undamaged and in good time (56 days) considering the prevailing winds were consistently from less than favorable directions. Wind speeds reported as high as the low 70s and frequently between 50-60. The delivery skipper did report "surfing speeds" as high as 18k! About 185 gallons of diesel were used.

Another note on the forward cockpit. I have spoken directly to a crew member (a veteran of more than 60k ocean miles at the time) who crewed on a delivery from Cape Town to the Med. He reported very rough weather and during one 36 hour period, frequent waves into the forward cockpit. He reported that the water was shed very quickly and safely. The boat handled the extra weight without incident. The breaking waves certainly slowed the boat, but apparently it was minimal overall. I think the Leopard 44 has now proven to be a very seaworthy design; however, still more at home between 30N and 30S.

[weavis]

Open gunboat front cockpit.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Hello Tropic Cat,
I'm a bit confused over your comment regarding boats designed for the Southern Ocean...

I'll try and explain. Here's the view of the bulkheads on a Crowther 50 under construction. "...Boat was made with Core-Cell structural foam. Several densities were used to appropriately support high load areas and fastener penetrations. Various E-glass reinforcements were used for the structure. Hydrex-100 vinylester resin and West Systems epoxy were used throughout...."




I haven't seen anything like this from a European builder, but have seen it on some So. African made boats.. Admittedly, this boat's resale probably was in low 7 figures. However, it's the strength I was referring too. It really caught my eye when I was going through her build photos.

The boat is now for sale: Crowther 50 for sale by owner

[ozsailer]

Jim many thanks for the info on the Leopard and the Gunboat. Was not aware of the journeys taken by experienced sailors taking these craft on ocean crossings. It has certainly given me food for thought.

Hi TC I now understand where you are coming from in regard to boats being built for the Southern Ocean. I have great regard for boats designed by Lock Crowther. Near where I live they have an annual Crowther regatta which is a big deal here for good reason.




Greg H

[Palarran]

Tropic Cat,
Interesting link to that FSBO site. Based on the asking prices of those boats I'd say prices have almost doubled in the last 5 years. Wow.

Just an interesting picture. Does this drive anyone nuts?