Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by PooBeetle

thorcat
"enough already." ??

two things;

1/
if you explain too briefly, some peeps don't understand.

ie "3 cents extra moly" should have been enough to explain every single thing i typed, that should have been the whole conversation, the entire thread. but some people needed more. they didn't understand SCC. even rigging companies didn't understand, they also kept asking more and more questions.

ie chlorine is a catalyst - simple chemistry - a catalyst is un-used in a reaction, and so keeps destroying forever. this is different to 316 in fresh water. and some people didn't understand that either.

but then if you explain too much, peoples eyes glaze over.

so i tried to explain in the absolute minimum. the scientific stuff goes on forever, and this was in my estimation - a good enough short summary for most people to have a firm understanding of the true reality.

some people still do not understand, and it shows clearly in their posts.

so;
even rigging companies didn't understand, they kept asking more and more questions, and then? still didn't understand.


2/
the rig is the engine of your boat.

somebody has just shown you how to get many times the performance out of it; in all reality; infinitely better safety, and all for lower cost.

and what was your reaction to this? a $7 32550 never fail chainplate versus a $200 316 guaranteed to fail chainplate.


weird. other people here think this is astounding. revolutionary stuff by a brilliant researcher. the winds of change that you were priviledged enough to see the begining of and to be a part of

( admitedly as part of an angry mob booing and dragging down, but non the less, still a part of )

are you sure you understand what has just happened?

a new never fail engine design for cheaper and safer than your current primitive dangerous rubbish.

or are you disinterested in the thread topic?




Rakuflames

but can you point me to a website where I could actually purchase chain plates, bolts, screws and washers, etc.,

no. there is currently no single one stop shop doing this.

"Could they be combined with the 316 parts on my boat? I cannot afford to strip my boat of all stainless and replace it with something else all at once, so what would the chemical interaction between the two metals be? Safe or not safe?"

yes, minimal galvanic coupling. any electro-corrosion will be powered by acidic 316, not passive 316 (good intact chrome oxide surface) (ie crevice corrosion - ie a split, a big invisible sour crack in a bolt), so if it is any consolation, only the 316 part that was going to fail from crevice corrosion anyway will fail.)

however such 32550/316 effects are very very minor. almost non existant, as they are almost exactly the same metal. so no worse than using titanium. i'd risk it as we're talking very low voltage and decades here. as you already said, it is not 100% perfect to couple dis-similar metals in salt water, but i'd do it, but only for higher alloys or titanium.

replacing a few parts at a time is a very sensible way to do it.


"but are actual parts available of these alloys you speak of? "
no.

a small new zealand rigging fittings manufacturer and a small chinese rigging fittings manufacturer have said they'd make them for me (as well as my local cnc guys). (i'm fairly sure i'm repeating myself here.)

the small chinese rigging fitting company that will undoughtedly end up winning the quoting and making the batch for me could very easily make a bigger run and keep stock on hand if other guys want some. they want new business.

probably cost the same as 316 fittings, but you may save 300% as you'd be buying over the internet and direct from the factory, and not a retail shop.

take a swageless fitting to a local CNC shop and get a quote, just so you know the price difference, and i'll send you chinese guys final quote when they finally finalise. i told them there was no rush.




stillbuilding

"Well done Poo."

thank you.

"To implement his findings will take some effort by the reader and discussion with smaller engineering workshops but very achievable"

true; but perhaps not even that much extra effort, as the two small rigging fitting manufacturing companies that have said they'll do it for me could easily continue their production. be actually cheaper for them to make more fittings.

so all you really have to do is put your hand up.





I think a brief recap of the good stuff is in order;

Different solutions posted so far:

Unstayed masts - surely the best solution, as it bypasses the entire problem completely, and forever.

Galv and tar - great solution - as steel is very tough. last for a very long time if you can keep the tar on the ropes and fittings.

Better Alloys - you have to visit a small engineering firm and order them yourself though.

UHMWPE ropes and composite chainplates - a fairly common method. cheap, easy as. Dynex dux et al.

Replacing 316 bits as they fail - most do exactly this.

Buy a dye penetration kit - real cheap! and do it often, every 5 months max?

Design redundancy into the rig - solent stays etc

Titanium - great stuff. (except for ropes - fatigue strength gets real low)


Overwhelmingly? the vast majority of posters seem content to stick to 316.

"

mes

but can you point me to a website where I could actually purchase chain plates, bolts, screws and washers, etc.,

no. there is currently no single one stop shop doing this. "


Then for myself I will continue as I have ... use SS, check, replace as necessary.

When the market agrees with you, Poo, the sailors will follow.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"

When the market agrees with you, Poo, the sailors will follow.

Something tells me POO doesn't really understand capitalism. If it were only really 3C worth of moly added to the mix, to make the material that much better, the marketing geniuses would have sold it for 5 times the cost already as the forever rig!!

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Something tells me POO doesn't really understand capitalism. If it were only really 3C worth of moly added to the mix, to make the material that much better, the marketing geniuses would have sold it for 5 times the cost already as the forever rig!!

THERE IT IS!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

They've been made separately, and you put them together. Useful post IMO. But then I'm one of those cruisers who, as soon as I'm clear of the shallow water and the putt-putters, wants to sse what the boat can do.

I don't race her -- if you lived in an RV, would you road race her? But I have my belongings secured, and I like to see how fast she can go. So far the record is 7.3 k with both sails, and 6.5 k just on the headsail.

I look at all the maneuverings that go on at starting lines, and the need to never back off to win a race. I see the damage done to boats in races -- blown out sails, even sinkings. I have a friend with a 19 ft boat that was t-boned by a 37 ft one at a starting line. That had to be pretty terrifying to see that big boat coming down on her! No thankee...

But I deliberately bought a fast boat. To me that's part of the fun, to squeeze every ounce of PRODUCTIVE speed I can out of her. That means doing sensible things like reefing when appropriate. I like a good, hard sail that works my body, my boat and my brain, and time to enjoy the end of the day. My sails are in good shape and I keep an eye on them -- my headsail is being restitched right now while the boat is laid up.

I'm not doing it foolishly. I don't' have the experience to handle a spinnaker, and I like my comforts (translation -- shade in the cockpit). I don't take the bimini down; a hardcore racer would.

+1

Me too, although I know that it means that I wear out the rig and sails MUCH faster than if you take it easy, and that it means a much greater risk of breaking or ripping something.

It means -- for those who didn't know what was being talked about -- reefing late, not early, pushing the boat, slacking the outhaul a tiny bit for a little more belly in the mainsail, letting her be a little overpowered in the gusts, that is, sailing hard and fast

I had two fantastic Channel crossings this summer, both beam/close reaches in a nice 20 - 25 knots wind under all plain sail. Made 103 miles from Fowey to Roscoff in N Brittany in 11 1/2 hours , average speed not all that far off our hull speed, but it did mean hard, hard work trimming and helming, trimming and helming, and having the rail in the water from time to time. No sunbathing in the cockpit or lolling around below Man, the drinks tasted good that night . . .

Like you said -- a good, hard sail which gives you a good workout, and then gets you there in time for cocktail hour Man, it's nice to see that fine spray thrown up high at the bow when you exceed hull speed . . . the boat feels so alive . . . That's what I like to do, and I'm willing to pay to replace the sails and rig more often in order to enjoy that feeling. Others may have a different style of sailing, more power to them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"

mes

but can you point me to a website where I could actually purchase chain plates, bolts, screws and washers, etc.,

no. there is currently no single one stop shop doing this. "


Then for myself I will continue as I have ... use SS, check, replace as necessary.

Any metal fab shop can make a chainplate. It's just a piece of metal sheet or plate with some holes in it -- hell, I can make them, and with tools I carry on board.

If you have to replace yours, I would go with titanium. A little boat like yours is at greater risk because the chainplates are small and thin and no doubt run straight through the deck with some silicon sealing around them -- I would definitely go with Ti in your case. Titanium chainplates will be more expensive to fabricate because Ti is hard to cut, but it's not going to be a ridiculous amount of money. I wouldn't obsess about it, but when you get to the point of having to replace the current ones, remember this thread.

As to bolts, screws and washers, there are myriad sources of these in whatever conceivable metal or grade of stainless you could ever want. Shouldn't take more the 5 minutes with Mr. Goorgle to find a dozen sources.

Lack of a "one-stop shop" is not the reason to use any particular kind of metal for elements of your rig. It's not rocket science to put together the bits of a new rig. A rigging shop can also do it for you, if you don't mind paying them -- then you even have the "one stop shop".

[Target9000]

There is a lot to be said for a "one stop shop". I've been getting ready to tackle a full rerig on our boat and I've been overwhelmed trying to put together all the parts and pieces needed to remake everything. We have 4 sets of boomkin tangs, six chainplates, a stem fitting, a set of whisker tanks, and two bobstay internal plates. And those are just the plates!

Now I've been to a few machine shops and they all pretty much look at me cross eyed if I even mention titanium. They start hee'ing and haw'ing and you'd think I'd asked them to make a chain plate out of flesh and blood or something.

I'm convinced SS is not the way to go with rigging, but then I call up the guy that provides parts for W32s (our boat) and ask him if he can provide the stuff we need. He sends back a sheet with literally every part of the rig on it with a clear price out beside it. The only problem, it is SS. But the boat has been around the world three times with SS. So... What to do?

Time is money. Uncertainty can cost money. Its a lot easier to order parts from a guy with locked in prices and proven track record than it is to try to go around fabricating parts out of materials that seem exotic. Heck, we even though of buying some aluminum bronze flat bar and using it as a cheaper alternative for the six side chain plates, but then we ran into... "Can you cold bend it?" No one around here seems to know. I could hire an engineer or trust the internet... Or I could just buy the premade SS ones for a pretty cheap price.

Then you start asking yourself... If I go with XXX alloy for the plates, what do I use for the fitting? For the turnbuckles, for the fasteners, etc. It turns into an engineering game and I'm no metal engineer. A very daunting project for a novice.

SS clearly isn't the best, but it seems to be used the most. Going with the pack buys convenience. I really wish there were easier ways to shop for and get prices on the sorts of things we need in multiple metals.

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by Target9000

There is a lot to be said for a "one stop shop". I've been getting ready to tackle a full rerig on our boat and I've been overwhelmed trying to put together all the parts and pieces needed to remake everything. We have 4 sets of boomkin tangs, six chainplates, a stem fitting, a set of whisker tanks, and two bobstay internal plates. And those are just the plates!

Now I've been to a few machine shops and they all pretty much look at me cross eyed if I even mention titanium. They start hee'ing and haw'ing and you'd think I'd asked them to make a chain plate out of flesh and blood or something.

I'm convinced SS is not the way to go with rigging, but then I call up the guy that provides parts for W32s (our boat) and ask him if he can provide the stuff we need. He sends back a sheet with literally every part of the rig on it with a clear price out beside it. The only problem, it isn't SS. But the boat has been around the world three times with SS. So... What to do?

Time is money. Uncertainty can cost money. Its a lot easier to order parts from a guy with locked in prices and proven track record than it is to try to go around fabricating parts out of materials that seem exotic. Heck, we even though of buying some aluminum bronze flat bar and using it as a cheaper alternative for the six side chain plates, but then we ran into... "Can you cold bend it?" No one around here seems to know. I could hire an engineer or trust the internet... Or I could just buy the premade SS ones for a pretty cheap price.

Then you start asking yourself... If I go with XXX alloy for the plates, what do I use for the fitting? For the turnbuckles, for the fasteners, etc. It turns into an engineering game and I'm no metal engineer. A very daunting project for a novice.

SS clearly isn't the best, but it seems to be used the most. Going with the pack buys convenience. I really wish there were easier ways to shop for and get prices on the sorts of things we need in multiple metals.

Well, as a non-engineer, I am just starting the process of installing a custom rig on a large yacht and I find very little off-the shelf stuff useful and the same blank looks and laughter when I look for something more than the existing SS rod rigging and end bits. I do think Poo's rant contained enough gems to allow me to ask more intelligent questions of the local fabricators. I understand the unpredictable expense and time-wasting elements only too well but may as well be involved in the process. I am quite sure none of the riggers I know would weep as much as I if the whole show falls down.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Something tells me POO doesn't really understand capitalism. If it were only really 3C worth of moly added to the mix, to make the material that much better, the marketing geniuses would have sold it for 5 times the cost already as the forever rig!!

Capitalism inspired the Detroit carmakers to design and build cars which would fall apart in less than 75k miles. Everyone accepted that until the Japanese introduced cars designed and built to go 200k miles for the same price.

I've seen and my share of 316 failures, and would welcome better materials, especially in places like keelbolts where the cost of inspection and replacement are very high.

However, I have a rule--I don't trust the Chinese to make any critical parts.

[Sand crab]

These guys have lots of marine hardware. They will make you just about any chainplate you need too.
Titanium Marine Products, Items 1 to 50 of 5308 - Allied Titanium

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Capitalism inspired the Detroit carmakers to design and build cars which would fall apart in less than 75k miles. Everyone accepted that until the Japanese introduced cars designed and built to go 200k miles for the same price.

I.

Exactly, the Japanese saw a need in the market and took it. Sounds like good capitalism to me. No laws were passed requiring cars to go for more than 75k miles.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by impi

Was chatting to a mate of mine who delivers new catamarans ... was out of port on the first day ... new cat and rig ... came down on him as had a few others on the same brand of new cats ... turns out they were buying a new brand of masts from China to save costs ... he felt it has something to do with the mast 'flexing on its self' (?)

so what make cat was it

[geoleo]

in 1971 enroute to Islands was 2 days out of Great Inaugua on upwind passage in 18 kn wind wnen BAM! looked up and saw headsail sagging-dropped headsail and main-started engine. Turns out the headsail turnbuckle had snapped! Only the luff wire in the headsail kept the mast up.. Lesson : Never never use ss turnbuckles!!

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

in 1971 enroute to Islands was 2 days out of Great Inaugua on upwind passage in 18 kn wind wnen BAM! looked up and saw headsail sagging-dropped headsail and main-started engine. Turns out the headsail turnbuckle had snapped! Only the luff wire in the headsail kept the mast up.. Lesson : Never never use ss turnbuckles!!

I am talking with John Franta at Colligo Marine re Dynex Dux rig. He tells me they are on the point of selling a range of titanium turnbuckles so there is an option to ss.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

in 1971 enroute to Islands was 2 days out of Great Inaugua on upwind passage in 18 kn wind wnen BAM! looked up and saw headsail sagging-dropped headsail and main-started engine. Turns out the headsail turnbuckle had snapped! Only the luff wire in the headsail kept the mast up.. Lesson : Never never use ss turnbuckles!!

Forget the material it was made out off,

Why did the turnbuckle snap,

Was it under size,

Manufacturing fault,

Even stainless has to have a reason to snap,

1971, Cheap grade of stainless, ??????????

This is not a stainless versus others, question,
It is just to find the answer on why the equiptment failed, and to prevent it happening again,

Turnbuckles fail usually to being undersize.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

in 1971 enroute to Islands was 2 days out of Great Inaugua on upwind passage in 18 kn wind wnen BAM! looked up and saw headsail sagging-dropped headsail and main-started engine. Turns out the headsail turnbuckle had snapped! Only the luff wire in the headsail kept the mast up.. Lesson : Never never use ss turnbuckles!!

1971? That's quite a recent experience, you'd hope engineering/design has changed a little in 40+ years.
Would have thought the headsail may have tightened somewhat.....

Even earlier around 1969 we were sailing a 25' plywood catamaran across Moreton Bay at 20+knots, BANG the rig came crashing down whilst we were on trapeze (that's a bunch of fun). Stick neatly laid and lashed on deck we proceeded to paddle by hand the 6 miles of sandbars dodging Flathead spikes and Tiger Sharks along the way...

Reason? The ply was rotten, totally rotten! The chainplate on the windward side pulled out of the deck with a 6inch square piece still attached.....

Lesson then was, "Be suspicious of any 25' catamaran for sale with trailer for $40!!!!

Was fun......