Delusion in the older Multi-Hull Market

[smj]

In my opinion the newer production cats are focusing more on space and no pace where the newer production monos are gearing more towards sailing performance. Kudos to the newer production monos.

[sailingharry]

I agree with you. But my original comment was directed at Ron17571's comment "I guess those videos of happy Catamaran owners zipping past monohulls while they are relaxing and enjoying life are all a lie." Modern cats have their strong points, and they really do -- but "zipping past monohulls" isn't one of them. When we were shopping, the only cats that had our attention were older, higher performance production cats like the FP Casamance or the Norseman 440 (we came as close as you can get to putting an offer on one without actually putting in an offer) -- performance numbers that could probably give my Saga a run for her money. But no production cat in the 20-teens has those numbers.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I agree with you. But my original comment was directed at Ron17571's comment "I guess those videos of happy Catamaran owners zipping past monohulls while they are relaxing and enjoying life are all a lie." Modern cats have their strong points, and they really do -- but "zipping past monohulls" isn't one of them. When we were shopping, the only cats that had our attention were older, higher performance production cats like the FP Casamance or the Norseman 440 (we came as close as you can get to putting an offer on one without actually putting in an offer) -- performance numbers that could probably give my Saga a run for her money. But no production cat in the 20-teens has those numbers.

What is a 20-teen?

[sailingharry]

Sorry. A boat built between 2010 and 2020.


When we were looking, I had a soft break point of 2000 -- designs from the 1990's were interesting, designs after that weren't matching my design priorities.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Sorry. A boat built between 2010 and 2020.


When we were looking, I had a soft break point of 2000 -- designs from the 1990's were interesting, designs after that weren't matching my design priorities.

Ok, then sure there were plenty of production cats built in that period that would outsail your Saga, but none of the charter cats.

[sailingharry]

The only significant time I have on a cat was a Catana 43 from Marsh Harbor to Newport, RI -- 7 days flat. After that, my wife was sold on cats -- as long as they were Catana's. LOL. After that trip, he offered me half ownership -- for about what we paid for full ownership of our Saga!


Yes, the performance-production cats (Catana, Chris White's, HH, etc) are a good trade between performance and comfort and price - but they are certainly not the cat version of the mono AWB (average white boat)! They are scarce, expensive, and nice to look at when you do see them. When people talk about buying a cat, they usually mean FP/Lagoon/Leopard. Maybe not here on CF, but in general (those three probably have 90% of the hulls on the water).

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

The only significant time I have on a cat was a Catana 43 from Marsh Harbor to Newport, RI -- 7 days flat. After that, my wife was sold on cats -- as long as they were Catana's. LOL. After that trip, he offered me half ownership -- for about what we paid for full ownership of our Saga!


Yes, the performance-production cats (Catana, Chris White's, HH, etc) are a good trade between performance and comfort and price - but they are certainly not the cat version of the mono AWB (average white boat)! They are scarce, expensive, and nice to look at when you do see them. When people talk about buying a cat, they usually mean FP/Lagoon/Leopard. Maybe not here on CF, but in general (those three probably have 90% of the hulls on the water).

But when people talk about owning a mono it’s usually Hunter, Beneteau, Catalina etc. not a Saga?

[sailingharry]

Exactly! So again, compare a 2018 Lagoon with a 2018 Benny on the water, and I'll wager the Benny doesn't get passed often. Especially if you compare a 40' Lagoon with a 50' Benny (closer in cost and "function" -- not fair to compare 40 to 40).

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Exactly! So again, compare a 2018 Lagoon with a 2018 Benny on the water, and I'll wager the Benny doesn't get passed often. Especially if you compare a 40' Lagoon with a 50' Benny (closer in cost and "function" -- not fair to compare 40 to 40).

Yes as I said before, the newer breed of mass production cats aren’t performance oriented. Now if you can look beyond the mass produced cats you can find some lower production catamarans that sail very well, just gotta bring the $$$$$’s

[Factor]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

When people talk about buying a cat, they usually mean FP/Lagoon/Leopard. .

And you know this how?

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by Factor

And you know this how?

I think he means it's likely you will be buying one of these just because their are more of them.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

older, higher performance production cats like the FP Casamance or the Norseman 440

Casamance maybe ish, but a Norseman? Performance? Really?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Factor

And you know this how?

maybe market shares?

[Island Time O25]

It's not as much a delusion as it is supply and demand problem. Back in the 80s for every new cat sold there were 10s or even 100s of new monos. So today as cats got much more popular those who prefer to buy a used cat but are budget limited are chasing fewer and fewer older cats on the market. Unlike 30-40-50 year old monos which are now a dime a dozen for converse reason (too many built and sold back then with fewer takers today) the older cats' prices will come down if or when new technology/styles/fads will make them less desirable to potential buyers or there will be fewer of those buyers or both.

That said, I do think there is no rhyme or reason other than gullibility of the buyer that a 35-40 yr old PDQ or Privilege should be going for anywhere above $20-30k, if that much. ))

[sailingharry]

There is MUCH more to performance than a single number, but weight and SA/D (sail area to displacement) are strong indicators. Some weights and SA/D from sailboatdata.com, ranked in decreasing SA/D:
Catana 431 (1998) -- 18,000 30.87
FP Casamance 45 (1985) -- 18,000 24.55
Norseman 440 (2001) -- 20,000 23.82 (Note, this is for the Voyage 440 -- not sure the differences, but Sailboatdata doesn't list the Norseman).
Oceanis 45 (2013) -- 21,00- 22.67
Leopard 40 (2015) -- 20,000 22.07
Saga 43 (1996) -- 20,000 20.86
Catana 43 (2004) -- 24,000 20.63
Lagoon 400 (2009) -- 22,000 18.18
Lagoon 40 (2017) -- 24,000 16.00
FP Lucia 40 (2015) -- 20,00 13.78


It's interesting to see the degradation in performance over time -- the Catana fell from 30.87 to 20.63, the Lagoon from 18.18 to 16.00, the FP (yes, different sizes) from 24.55 to 13.78.


But, to my point about the Norseman 440 and Casamance -- They are #2 and #3 in this list, higher than either of the cruising monohulls I list (we'll agree to disagree on my Saga -- I see her as a "fast cruiser," not a "cruiser/racer"), and head and shoulders above most of the other cats listed after the old Catana (20% or more).


The one odd data point is the Leopard 40. I'm not going to say the numbers are wrong. But it sure makes you ask, "WTF?" It looks to be a condo cat, competing tightly in the market with Lagoon and FP. One would say "Lagoon/Leopard/FP" in much the same way one would say "Catalina/Benne/Jeaneau." But the SA/D is in another universe! If I were shopping, I'd take a second look at Leopard! (compare the 40' 2015 designs from Leopard and FP, and the SA/D is almost double).


Oh, lest someone question my objectivity in my selection of boats. Yes, biased! I own a Saga 43, a friend owns a Oceanis 45, I did a delivery on a Catana 431, I came close to buying a Norseman, I lusted after a Casamance, hence those are on the list. But in general, a 40' cat is comparable to a much larger mono, so I think comparing a 40' cat to the two monos is fair (actually, they are closer to a 45-50 foot mono, but I don't sail those monos!). And I don't think cats below 40 "work well" so I don't want to include 38' cats -- they are out there, their owner's love them, but I really think 40' is the entry for extended time on a cat.