Delusion in the older Multi-Hull Market

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by sea dragon

What incentive is there to sell if someone wants you to practically give a boat to them.?
I think the delusion goes both ways.
Someone offers to "buy" my boat at least once a year.
The answer is always no.
Who cares if you want to buy it for a scrap price.
Piss off.

When you factor in storage, insurance and other costs...giving it away is often a boon for the seller even if they get nothing.

But it's often far from a rational process.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

I thought we received a great deal at $20k for my boat. I have put in over $90k in engines, rigging, mast, sails, electronics, hard top, refrigeration, solar, Lifepo4, etc. I now feel good about our boat but have about as much as we would buying a good quality boat with good qualities.

You know Chiro, if you have a 120 grand into a well outfitted Lagoon TPI 37, that sounds like a great deal. The TPI's were well built boats (far better than the French version) and 37' is a very handy size. I really doubt you could do better in today's catamaran market.

[Intentional Drifter]

It's not just used boats. Here's a new boat, never hit the water, that I remember being advertised since at least 2006/2007: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/202...rorig-7850414/ I've driven by it several times on the way to the coast and it's sitting outside on blocks for all these years. I don't recall what they were asking for it back then, but I'm pretty sure the price has gone up in the meantime.


ID

[shemandr]

I think the ultimate boat graveyard is the Indiantown Marina (Although I'm not sure that's the official name). Many broken dreams there. I found it driving to Lake Okeechobee. I noticed a forest of mast in what I considered the middle of nowhere. 'Course I had to go investigate. My visit to the marina ended with a sad feeling.

[ron17571]

I can always count on some hate for Catamarans here. I guess those videos of happy Catamaran owners zipping past monohulls while they are relaxing and enjoying life are all a lie.

[CaptBobR]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Go to Green Cove Springs if you want to see "broken dreams"....there must be umpteen boats on the hard in various stages or rot and decay and general abandonment. I doubt some of them have had any human being on them in years.

Are the owners keeping up with storage payments, I tend to doubt this. It'a boat graveyard.

But, if you're looking for a "fixer upper" might be worth a trip out there.

Florida Youth Maritime Training, which is an IRS 501(c)(3) non profit charity has been trying to deal with management at the marina to acquire an older boat. Management wants full storage fees and the boat will likely be scrapped

[double u]

Originally Posted by Factor

I am continually amazed by threads like this. There is no law that says sellers have to be realistic or sensible anymore than there is a law that buyers should be sensible. Here is a thought. Don’t like it don’t buy it.

& is there a law against discussing buyer's delusions???

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

It's not just used boats. Here's a new boat, never hit the water, that I remember being advertised since at least 2006/2007: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/202...rorig-7850414/ I've driven by it several times on the way to the coast and it's sitting outside on blocks for all these years. I don't recall what they were asking for it back then, but I'm pretty sure the price has gone up in the meantime.


ID

Yup, the price has doubled. It's never been titled so that old boat can still be sold as new as in this model year new.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

You know Chiro, if you have a 120 grand into a well outfitted Lagoon TPI 37, that sounds like a great deal. The TPI's were well built boats (far better than the French version) and 37' is a very handy size. I really doubt you could do better in today's catamaran market.

Yes, a freshly refit boat the way YOU want is better than one that comes to you done. My boat, which we bought 3 years ago, came VERY well fit out, and we don't have any regrets. But, those nice ST60 instruments are 20 years old, and not digital N2K gear. The life raft is 10 years old and a few years overdue for a repack. The AGM batteries would be a lot nicer if they were LFP. The EPIRB battery is expired, and a new battery (factory work) is more than the latest version of the EPIRB (with a user replaceable longer-lasting battery). The main and stack-pack are decent, although I've put a couple hundred into repairs -- but I won't get 2 more years out of them. The nice soft-bottom dinghy has been replaced with an Aluminum RIB, 'cause that's what we want.


Bottom line, putting $90K into a boat you got cheap because it needed $90K is MUCH better than paying $70K more (ie, $20K less total) for a turn-key boat.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by ron17571

I can always count on some hate for Catamarans here. I guess those videos of happy Catamaran owners zipping past monohulls while they are relaxing and enjoying life are all a lie.

I'm not sure it's a lie. But, I have constantly been perplexed by how I routinely pass cruising cats 5-10 feet longer than my mono, in all conditions and all points of sail. And when one passes me, I see their engine exhaust -- they may not be motoring, but who knows? This was in my old '79 Sabre 34, and in my newer '98 Saga 43.


I know my Saga 43 will easily and repeatably do 8 kts of boat speed in 8 kts of true wind speed (asym with true wind at 090), and will do at least 50% of true wind speed in winds from 5-15 on all points of sail. Will a modest cruising cat do 100% of wind speed? Or even 50%?



Hate? No. I'd seriously consider the tradeoff of flat sailing and comfortable anchoring for a knot or two of less speed. We looked at them when we bought our current boat -- but they were out of our budget.


But I'm not convinced that those videos showing cruising cats passing monohulls are representative. Consider this -- a Lagoon 40 is 5' shorter than my Saga, weighs 10% more, has 10% less sail area, and has more wetted surface and windage. That combination isn't likely to make a faster boat.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I'm not sure it's a lie. But, I have constantly been perplexed by how I routinely pass cruising cats 5-10 feet longer than my mono, in all conditions and all points of sail. And when one passes me, I see their engine exhaust -- they may not be motoring, but who knows? This was in my old '79 Sabre 34, and in my newer '98 Saga 43.


I know my Saga 43 will easily and repeatably do 8 kts of boat speed in 8 kts of true wind speed (asym with true wind at 090), and will do at least 50% of true wind speed in winds from 5-15 on all points of sail. Will a modest cruising cat do 100% of wind speed? Or even 50%?



Hate? No. I'd seriously consider the tradeoff of flat sailing and comfortable anchoring for a knot or two of less speed. We looked at them when we bought our current boat -- but they were out of our budget.


But I'm not convinced that those videos showing cruising cats passing monohulls are representative. Consider this -- a Lagoon 40 is 5' shorter than my Saga, weighs 10% more, has 10% less sail area, and has more wetted surface and windage. That combination isn't likely to make a faster boat.

Maybe better to compare the Lagoon 40 to the old Morgan OI 41 as both were intended for mainly comfort and space?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by smj

Maybe better to compare the Lagoon 40 to the old Morgan OI 41 as both were intended for mainly comfort and space?

Ah, but the poster indicated that they routinely pass monhulls -- not that they routinely pass outdated, slow, underperforming monuhulls that don't even compare well to today's comfort/space monohulls (in performance or comfort/space!). It would be interesting to compare the Lagoon 40 to the Oceanis 45 -- and I bet it wouldn't be hands down to the cat!


Note, the Oceanis is 2 feet longer than my Saga, weights about the same, and has 10 % more sail area than my Saga -- so at least on paper, is as fast or faster.

[Nahbrown]

We are being told that if we sell now our boat would list for $390 (we bought in 2018 for $325) but we are doing one more 6 month trip to the Bahamas before we sell it in July.

Lagoon 440 owners version with all the cruising upgrades (solar, hardtop, spectra watermaker ect) except lithium.



Who knows if the market will hold or not but this last trip for us is priceless so we will wait to sell.

[smj]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Ah, but the poster indicated that they routinely pass monhulls -- not that they routinely pass outdated, slow, underperforming monuhulls that don't even compare well to today's comfort/space monohulls (in performance or comfort/space!). It would be interesting to compare the Lagoon 40 to the Oceanis 45 -- and I bet it wouldn't be hands down to the cat!


Note, the Oceanis is 2 feet longer than my Saga, weights about the same, and has 10 % more sail area than my Saga -- so at least on paper, is as fast or faster.

You’ve obviously misread my post. I was saying that the Lagoon 40 is by no means a performance cat as the Morgan OI 41 isn’t a performance mono, a good comparison.
Your Saga 43 would probably be considered a racer cruiser? So maybe compare it to a racer cruiser catamaran instead of a Lagoon.

[sailingharry]

Well, with a Solent rig and a dinghy in the davits, I'm not a racer/cruiser! The boat doesn't tack -- a tack with the genoa up requires a slow gybe. Has Bob Perry ever designed a racer/cruiser (that's not a dig against Bob -- I only know his cruiser designs like the Valiant and the Passport -- he may also do more performance boats). But that's why I offered up the Oceanis. Comparing a 2018 cruising cat to a 1990 cruising mono is as unfair as comparing a 2018 Oceanis to a 1990 Morgan. Or is an Oceanis also a Racer/Cruiser? What modern mono is a "comfortable cruiser?"