Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[GRIT]

Ah, I see now. The problem is getting the sheet past centre. I got it.

I originally considered using an Selden raised track, and it sounds like it might be the ticket. It's angled, and curved, so the car is pulling evenly on both sides.

https://support.seldenmast.com/en/pr...b_systems.html

Thanks for your comments.
Paul.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Photo taken a couple weeks earlier going upwind near Great Keppel Island, with a full main.

Nice photo

Originally Posted by fxykty

Both main and jib were designed and built...

Good info

Hope you are starting to enjoy Queensland

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Are there higher strength balls for Harken travellers? We’re using the standard brown Torlon balls and they get crushed fairly quickly in our jib traveller.

I'm not aware of this. I understood that slides where the higher load option (not for Harken, but in general) but this option is of course slightly higher friction, instead of lower, which helps with the crushed torlon ball problem, but maybe not the sticking problem (although maybe the source of the sticking is the crushed balls of course...).

Without actually going to a bigger track and car combination, I think the only possibility is more cars, to spread the load, unless you are lucky and a newer higher strength / higher load car is available for your track now?

Which Harken track and car do you have?

And do you have 2 smaller cars? I can't quite see from the earlier photo.

Maybe you could go to 2 larger cars on the same track?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I originally considered using an Selden raised track, and it sounds like it might be the ticket. It's angled, and curved, so the car is pulling evenly on both sides.

https://support.seldenmast.com/en/pr...b_systems.html

Ah yeah, not so clean and flush on the foredeck though maybe...?
But an easy off the shelf bolt on system.

That might be just an indicative photo, but with only one small car shown I would take care to not have the same problem as fxykty, where the car(s) aren't sufficient for the real loads encountered.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

1992 Catana 40S, laden for liveaboard/cruising, Hydranet sails from 2013. current either abeam or ahead (current running S to N). ESE wind speed around 15 g20, 7-8kt boatspeeds

Seems pretty good to me given the above details

[Chrisatlantic]

The high load Harken 32 mm car is good for 4500 pounds. If you need more capacity you can couple two cars together. The 10 mm Torlon balls are the right bearings for those cars.

If the track is curved it will help the car go outboard after a tack. Whether the track should be angled depends on where the sheet leads to… Four basic set ups for self tacking jibs: On loose footed jibs, the sheet can either go 1) forward from the car, 2) go up the mast from the car, 3) go to one side of the track (dead ended at the other), or, 4) for boats that have jib booms, can go up into the boom and forward within the boom, exiting at the front end gooseneck attachment. Each of these configurations has a different requirement. Cases two and four do not require an angled track. The load is pretty much straight up and down so the traveler car is happy with a flat track. The first case where the sheet leads forward from the track probably benefits the most from having the track angled forward. The third case, with the sheet dead ended at one end of the track and led through a block on the traveler car, up through a block at the clew and back down through another block on the car then over to the other end of the track can probably get away with a flat track though a small angle forward would probably be beneficial.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Ah yeah, not so clean and flush on the foredeck though maybe...?
But an easy off the shelf bolt on system.

That might be just an indicative photo, but with only one small car shown I would take care to not have the same problem as fxykty, where the car(s) aren't sufficient for the real loads encountered.

I agree; not so sleek, but you get the idea. I assume it'll fit tighter to the deck than shown. If not, we can build a glass ramp instead of what's there.

We'll see. My plate's full for this winter. I'm thinking we'll do it over the summer, while we're in Canada.

Cheers.
Paul.

[toolbar]

I fitted the Selden track on our last boat, a Farrier F32 trimaran. Great piece of kit.

They bend it to your exact needs. Then you can cut the four legs to the needed height, so that the track reaches the deck at it's lowest point.

I am not sure, that it scales up to a 50 foot catamaran though. Needs to be discussed with Selden.

If you want build a foam/glass ramp then you up can get to a curved track plus car from all of the usual suspects. The Selden is the best looking solution with legs.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I'm not aware of this. I understood that slides where the higher load option (not for Harken, but in general) but this option is of course slightly higher friction, instead of lower, which helps with the crushed torlon ball problem, but maybe not the sticking problem (although maybe the source of the sticking is the crushed balls of course...).

Without actually going to a bigger track and car combination, I think the only possibility is more cars, to spread the load, unless you are lucky and a newer higher strength / higher load car is available for your track now?

Which Harken track and car do you have?

And do you have 2 smaller cars? I can't quite see from the earlier photo.

Maybe you could go to 2 larger cars on the same track?

The track is 27mm system B (same as the mainsail luff track) with a double car. To go next size up would mean replacing the track, which I’m not sure is possible as it’s bolted into our main beam with no interior access.



I will certainly consider two separate cars as each would be almost the size of the double car.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The track is 27mm system B (same as the mainsail luff track) with a double car. To go next size up would mean replacing the track, which I’m not sure is possible as it’s bolted into our main beam with no interior access.

I will certainly consider two separate cars as each would be almost the size of the double car.

Looking quickly I couldn't find your specific 27mm traveller car so I couldn't make an exact comparison regarding MWL. Maybe you can check the part number and/or measure the length.

But as I thought I remembered some of the cars do come in a 'standard' and a 'high load' variant which might enable you to make up a different combination.

Here's a few links that might be helpful. I've put the links for the models including 'Stand-Up Toggle, Control Tangs' because 'stand-up' is what you have, and the 'control tangs' might easily facilitate a custom connector. But they are also available without if you want to mix and match with your existing hardware.

1: 27mm Car — Stand-Up Toggle, Control Tangs MWL 816kg
https://www.harken.com/en/shop/27-mm...control-tangs/

2: 27mm High-Load Car — Stand-Up Toggle, Control Tangs MWL 1043kg
https://www.harken.com/en/shop/27-mm...control-tangs/

3: 27mm High-Load Double Cars — Stand-Up Toggles MWL 1633kg
https://www.harken.com/en/shop/27-mm...nd-up-toggles/

NB: the 3: 27mm High-Load Double Cars seems to be made from 2 of the shorter car lengths as it's 223mm long, for 1633kg.

Whereas the 2: 27mm High-Load Car (single) is 132mm, so 2 x would be 264mm long (more bearings) for 2086kg.

You could even go to 3 cars if that's what creates enough MWL for you and a spectra strop of some sort to spread the load. A bit over the top maybe, but as you said, easier than replacing the track perhaps.


Hope that helps


PS: I also posted a whole lot of other related links on this general subject for GRIT in his thread here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3509731

[fxykty]

I’m considering replacing our current jib traveller track with a Rutgerson track and cars - apparently much better performance with angled loads due to using roller bearings rather than ball bearings. https://www.rutgerson.se/product-cat...sheet-systems/. About the same cost as the 32mm Harken track and cars.

That will give us a 3000kg SWL, which will be higher than needed but I’d rather operate at 60-70% of SWL rather than 95-100%. Especially with our new high modulus sails that likely provide higher shock loads on their sheets.

Of course, if removing the existing track is too much of a hassle (I checked - it’s bolted into an under deck reinforcement rather than all the way through, so as long as I can use the same bolt holes no problems really for a new track) then using two separate Harken cars or even three could work. But it does set up a bit of a longer train of cars and I’m not sure the load will truly be shared.

[Chrisatlantic]

Since it looks like basically a flat track, at first I thought going to the 32mm Harken should be easy… the hole spacing is the same but the fasteners are 8mm rather than 6mm on your existing track so you would need to re-drill and re-tap the existing holes.

[fxykty]

How about the Harken CRX 32mm track? The CRX cars use rollers, so should work much better for the angled loaded our jib sheet. SWL for a double car is 2800kg.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

How about the Harken CRX 32mm track? The CRX cars use rollers, so should work much better for the angled loaded our jib sheet. SWL for a double car is 2800kg.

Can be good of course. I didn't suggest it because I understood that it's a custom solution and might be pricey.

But of course when you take into account other considerations, beam modifications, etc, it might work out.

I also seem to remember from the past that Harken track could be ordered with a custom hole size/spacing if necessary too.

If you will decide to upgrade the track, is this the time to get it curved too?

https://www.harken.com/en/support/te.../curved-track/

Of course that really doesn't fit well with your beam though, and would require a custom bracket to make the interface I guess.

[Matt Johnson]

Our 32 sqm self tacking headsail calls for a 32mm track and a HL car with a swl of 2000kg The 70sqm mainsail is a 42mm track and the 4000kg swl car.

Our 12.6m boat, the 13.6m Schionning and 13m Grainger all had the same basic sail area/deck layout/equipment list. I'd imagine your Outremmer would be even higher loads and require a step up from these specs.

Matt