Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your boat is optimised for costal cruising, mine for long ocean crossing. We carry 2.5T you carry much less judging from hull volumes.
We differ in perception what comfort is.

So it is really difficult to compare. Taking wife with you and 5 days at least passage, would level field somewhat.

You ask me to race with you in flat water behind island, is same as I ask you to race with me across atlantic. You would overweight your boat and be slower or take large risks by not having enough spares, fuel, food, comfort etc ,etc.

Again I point out that 44C lives aboard with wife and all his worldly goods and has done for about 10 years. In that time i know he has cruised the south pacific, he may have done other stuff. I know for example that he did a passage to Noumea with his wife and all his possessions, and was a day in front of the other boats in the group. But I am sure he can correct me if I am wrong. I know this trip from a friend who cruised with him, on another boat.

I have an idea, what about to Lord Howe, thats a good ocean test and no covid border issues to deal with.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

Again I point out that 44C lives aboard with wife and all his worldly goods and has done for about 10 years. In that time i know he has cruised the south pacific, he may have done other stuff. I know for example that he did a passage to Noumea with his wife and all his possessions, and was a day in front of the other boats in the group. But I am sure he can correct me if I am wrong. I know this trip from a friend who cruised with him, on another boat.

I have an idea, what about to Lord Howe, thats a good ocean test and no covid border issues to deal with.

i have no doubts what you said is true. LHI would not go well down with my wife and we have other plans for this year.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i have no doubts what you said is true. LHI would not go well down with my wife and we have other plans for this year.

Always an excuse, I will give you this, you are consistent.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your boat is optimised for costal cruising, mine for long ocean crossing. We carry 2.5T you carry much less judging from hull volumes.
We differ in perception what comfort is.

So it is really difficult to compare. Taking wife with you and 5 days at least passage, would level field somewhat.

You ask me to race with you in flat water behind island, is same as I ask you to race with me across atlantic. You would overweight your boat and be slower or take large risks by not having enough spares, fuel, food, comfort etc ,etc.

What a steaming load of absolute crap.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

What a steaming load of absolute crap.

i thought you going to say that.

Just watched Umadum sailing and they seem to be happily sailing oceans in their 45 feet (6T empty) cat. They get 1.5T of load capacity, so i guess one gets used to carrying less. they dont seem to be afraid of starving either. But still 1.5T really is not that much.

So i guess, i was wrong, you can do it too.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Always an excuse, I will give you this, you are consistent.

thanks for saying hi.

how is life in sydney? still job seeker and keeper going ?

[arsenelupiga]

i think it is interesting question what comes out better -


say take 2 tons of goods needs to be loaded.

perfromance cat 1.5T load capacity
L400 5T capacity

overweight performance cat or lightly loaded 40 % loaded L400, regarding performance and comfort.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i think it is interesting question what comes out better -





say take 2 tons of goods needs to be loaded.



perfromance cat 1.5T load capacity

L400 5T capacity



overweight performance cat or lightly loaded 40 % loaded L400, regarding performance and comfort.

A question you will never be able to answer as your unable to commit to a friendly race, just a lot of hot air.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i think it is interesting question what comes out better -


say take 2 tons of goods needs to be loaded.

perfromance cat 1.5T load capacity
L400 5T capacity

overweight performance cat or lightly loaded 40 % loaded L400, regarding performance and comfort.

Some boats, becauseof poor construction techniques and cheap materials, are overweight before you put one gramme of load on them. Not naming names....but maybe that's why you feel you'd need to carry tonnes of spares to sail a couple of thousand miles...

Anyway, we're well and truly overloaded. You're apparently underloaded by two tonnes. But you're still well aware which boat performs better aren't you? You won't race across the gulf. You won't race to Lord Howe. Let's face it. You won't race. Full stop.

You'll just keep making ridiculous claims, but you'll never back them up.

[jmh2002]

I suspect the answer to this is much the same as it is across many different types of boats, including monos too.

A fast boat remains a fast boat. An easily driven hull remains an easily driven hull.

Are they affected by adding weight? Yes of course. But I think in most cases it doesn't drag these boats down to 'slower boat' level.

Let's use the example of Umadum, a Looping 45, that you mentioned.

Nobody is talking about a ridiculous example of taking a 6T empty boat and adding 12t to it.

So even if they have a 1.5T load capacity, but add 3 tons to it instead, it still remains a light boat with a high sail area to displacement ratio and slim easily driven hulls (even if they are slightly less slim now with the extra weight).

Certainly I agree that it's possible to improve the performance of slower boats, by keeping them light, adding more sail area, and optimising everything possible. That's just good sense.

But it's a big jump up to that 'next level' performance.

So in summary yes of course there is a 'percentage loss' to the fast boat with added weight.

But I don't think the 'percentage gain' on the optimised slower boat will be enough to make up for the overall difference.

Here's a real world example even though it's from monhulls. Back in the day many of us will have done deliveries on light fast race boats. But on delivery the boat is loaded up with ALL the races sails, spares, tools, etc, etc, and is also normally sailed with old and/or smaller delivery sails too.

Is all of this noticeable? Of course. But even in this heavy 'delivery trim' these boats still remain much faster than the equivalent cruiser or cruiser/racer.

Yes multis are more weight sensitive. But the same principle applies.

[jmh2002]

Probably 44'cruisingcat can give us some specific numbers from his boat, even some simple ones.

ie: sail area to displacement ratio in empty trim, loaded to designers specs trim, and 'overloaded' in live aboard cruising trim.

I suspect the numbers will still be notable in terms of performance. I suspect it will be very obvious, even from these simple numbers, even without allowing for the daggerboards, slim hulls, etc.

Easily driven boats just make potential performance so much easier to realise, regardless of multi or mono.

[GRIT]

JMH2002: Well said.

Cheers.
Paul.

[smj]

We have a performance cat that is loaded for cruising. We don’t race, and it’s not because she’s overloaded it’s because I’m a crappy sailor.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Some boats, becauseof poor construction techniques and cheap materials, are overweight before you put one gramme of load on them. Not naming names....but maybe that's why you feel you'd need to carry tonnes of spares to sail a couple of thousand miles...

Anyway, we're well and truly overloaded. You're apparently underloaded by two tonnes. But you're still well aware which boat performs better aren't you? You won't race across the gulf. You won't race to Lord Howe. Let's face it. You won't race. Full stop.

You'll just keep making ridiculous claims, but you'll never back them up.

thinking again, your cat has daggers, hence you lose another 600 kg of carrying capacity, so instead of 1.5T you probably have 900 kg assuming yours is same performance level as Umadum Looping 45.

that is very thin in my books.

our boats are very different and my claims that we can tack below 90 deg are substantiated by tracks.

It is true that I am improving our boat performance but not because i want to race anyone, but because we preparing for multiple ocean crossings where speed is really important.

Boat is built well, we had no failures in 30 k nm and close to 9 years. Do not use internet as source of truth else you get mislead Comparing to other boats we sailed to NC, many had failures, breakages so others are probably hiding the failures.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I suspect the answer to this is much the same as it is across many different types of boats, including monos too.

A fast boat remains a fast boat. An easily driven hull remains an easily driven hull.

Are they affected by adding weight? Yes of course. But I think in most cases it doesn't drag these boats down to 'slower boat' level.

Let's use the example of Umadum, a Looping 45, that you mentioned.

Nobody is talking about a ridiculous example of taking a 6T empty boat and adding 12t to it.

So even if they have a 1.5T load capacity, but add 3 tons to it instead, it still remains a light boat with a high sail area to displacement ratio and slim easily driven hulls (even if they are slightly less slim now with the extra weight).

Certainly I agree that it's possible to improve the performance of slower boats, by keeping them light, adding more sail area, and optimising everything possible. That's just good sense.

But it's a big jump up to that 'next level' performance.

So in summary yes of course there is a 'percentage loss' to the fast boat with added weight.

But I don't think the 'percentage gain' on the optimised slower boat will be enough to make up for the overall difference.

Here's a real world example even though it's from monhulls. Back in the day many of us will have done deliveries on light fast race boats. But on delivery the boat is loaded up with ALL the races sails, spares, tools, etc, etc, and is also normally sailed with old and/or smaller delivery sails too.

Is all of this noticeable? Of course. But even in this heavy 'delivery trim' these boats still remain much faster than the equivalent cruiser or cruiser/racer.

Yes multis are more weight sensitive. But the same principle applies.

you are forgetting about bridgedeck clearance loss. If as you say loads 3 T then we see 30-40 cm drop in clearance. That is outright dangerous. I had opportunity seeing lighter cats loaded in these 3-4 m beam seas and i can assure you it iwas not pretty. Confirmed by crews. As i am polite will not repeat their werds.