Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

that is what owner said

, Must be true then, that is some serious stuff being smoked.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you are right. No impact. But it is something to think about if daggers left unused for longer, i heard.

Not our experience at all. The daggerboard trunk is antifouled as far as can be reached (with the daggerboards raised as far as possible, about 20cm clear of the bottom of the hull) and gets minimal growth. Mostly it is pitch black in there as we generally store the boards flush with the bottom of the hull.

Note that we have HDPE strips that keep the daggerboards off the sides of the trunk, so going up and down doesn’t scrape the sides.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

thanks for data point. So with keel you must have at least 10 deg leeway.



s.

Nowhere close to 10 degree leeway. Just far better lift when board is down allows for higher pointing while maintaining speed without leeway. It just means that I can point 10 degrees higher (and trim sails accordingly) without losing as much speed.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you are right. No impact. But it is something to think about if daggers left unused for longer, i heard.

And I’ve always heard Lagoons don’t point well. So it appears we’ve both learned something new from this thread! [emoji1303]

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you are right. No impact. But it is something to think about if daggers left unused for longer, i heard.

If you left daggerboards unused for a REALLY long time, some growth would occur, obviously.

But it would generally take far longer for growth to happen inside the case than everywhere else on the hull and props, rudders, etc because the case and the board are both antifouled and in close proximity. There's also very little water movement in there. So basically a fairly toxic environment for marine growth.

So if you're claiming that minikeels might be a better choice for people who intend to leave their boat unused for a decade or so, OK, you're probably right.

Meanwhile, for people who like to sail....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Gunboat is bankrupt company as far as i know so would not worry too much. VPLP seem to be doing quite well including designing lagoons, latest outremer and fastest boats on earth.

Daggers are faster, but keels are underestimated

McDonald's does well too, as does Coca-Cola. I guess the health benefits are underestimated...

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Gunboat is bankrupt company as far as i know so would not worry too much. VPLP seem to be doing quite well including designing lagoons, latest outremer and fastest boats on earth.:

Aside from the fact that Gunboat is owned by Outremer - my point is that when VPLP are tasked to design performance boats that can get to windward , they use daggerboards. And VPLP are not alone.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

yeah, ask around what mess when barnacles grow inside dagger trunk [emoji3][emoji3]

I'm not so sure.

I have a keel/centerboard mono hull. I last painted the trunk and board literally 9 years before repainting last year, there was no more than a thin slim in there. The only growth on the board was the very bottom where it often stuck out a bit and dragged in the sand sometimes.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

Aside from the fact that Gunboat is owned by Outremer - my point is that when VPLP are tasked to design performance boats that can get to windward , they use daggerboards. And VPLP are not alone.

totally agree. However, improvement for cruising cats from daggers is not as large as I was led to believe from books i have read. Cats with daggers have normally number of other performance features and all add up to better performance, that sometimes is contributed to daggers only.

Thks everyone, at least myself raised level of knowledge regarding foils, minikeels and how it all fits together. I am still puzzled why we found only 2 fixed keel cats displayed ability of 90 deg tacks. Maybe many simply do not care or everyone is overloaded.

I will be looking now for new upwind screecher that can sail inside or outside shrouds as old one that was designed for reaching is maturing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Sigh, OK, I'll try yet again. Almost any boat can do 90 degree tacks. It's just a matter of sailing slow enough relative to wind speed. If you can sail AWA of around 40 degrees or less, then it's simply a matter of making sure AWA is not too different from TWA.

And the slower you go, the smaller the difference.

[lyl]

A newbie question here...

Considering the OP's thread's subject, do you experienced folks think if 1190's and 105Mc's designs would help? Do you think these two can have pointing angles close, or even better than, some fin keel monohulls?

[Training Wheels]

We used to have a 105Mc. Very few monos would out point us. Certainly no cruising monos.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Full

A newbie question here...

Considering the OP's thread's subject, do you experienced folks think if 1190's and 105Mc's designs would help? Do you think these two can have pointing angles close, or even better than, some fin keel monohulls?

in our boat we get good angles till hulls are glued to water and no sail dumping swell, so sails lose power frequently. Once these less favourable conditions, monos win hands down. Reason is that they tolerate better swell and dumping swell. To counter this we increase pointing angle all the way to 50 + app sometimes. That is universal receipe for cats. Larger and pointy cats do it bit later and bit less. Rough conditions thin hull cats, looking from distance, seem to have violent motion.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Sigh, OK, I'll try yet again. Almost any boat can do 90 degree tacks. It's just a matter of sailing slow enough relative to wind speed. If you can sail AWA of around 40 degrees or less, then it's simply a matter of making sure AWA is not too different from TWA.

And the slower you go, the smaller the difference.

boat that can only do 50 app, will never be able to make 2 kn VMG in 8 kn true, no matter what speed. We have done 2 kn vmg over ground in 7.5 kn true with fouled bottom and less than ideal wind conditions. That where is the juice.

At around 18 kn true we do 5+ kn VMG. There is no f* way you can do this with 50 app angle. Actually you can do best is 2.5 VMG at around 9 kn boat speed.

As you know condo cats can efficiently sail upwind at 50 app or more, or so suburban legend goes.

Hope you now see significance of (some?) condo cat ability to climb sharp angles without much leeway.

[arsenelupiga]

Watched the factory video of seawind going upwind. It is recommended to sail at apparent angle 43.

in 18 kn true, you max VMG is 4.2 kn at 43 apparent but you have to make boat speed 11 KN!!

So even with that you are still 1kn VMG behind us in above conditions.