Considering Purchase of New Leopard 40

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by geoff326

Aren't we ignoring the elephant in the room here? I'm looking for a blue water Cat, but what concerns me, and I'm sure others, is the forward cockpit together with the access door.

I had that concern as well.

There are three handles that close the access door.

The drain for the forward cockpit is quite large.

I like that fact that you have easy access to the trampoline and the forward locker through the forward cockpit. That is very handy for rigging the gennaker, checking water levels in the tanks (I would have liked tank monitors) and access to the generator.

[Saleen411]

[QUOTE=geoff326;1957082]Aren't we ignoring the elephant in the room here? I'm looking for a blue water Cat, but what concerns me, and I'm sure others, is the forward cockpit together with the access door.[/QUOTE

It certainly concerned us and the many salts I spoke with at the boat show">Annapolis boat show. Some had STRONG opinions about "The Door". However, opinions are just that....

[Jeanneau 45.2]

N2CLIMBING, I can't comment on ocean performance beyond what I noted in my original post. Personally, I would not be comfortable with the open stern in a heavy following sea. There is no bridge deck on the aft sliding door, and that is the door I would be worried about. However the front door seems to dog down water tight. Also loss of items rolling off the stern seems a real possibility. However as noted in my first post, I personally prefer (and own) an ocean mono hull with enclosed transom and small bridge deck at the companionway ... so perhaps I am not the most objective reviewer.

jackdale, I agree with your comments. Good insight. On my boat things seemed well screwed together, although all the dome lights on the targa top over the rear seating area filled with water.

[geoff326]

Originally Posted by jackdale

I had that concern as well.

There are three handles that close the access door.

The drain for the forward cockpit is quite large.

I like that fact that you have easy access to the trampoline and the forward locker through the forward cockpit. That is very handy for rigging the gennaker, checking water levels in the tanks (I would have liked tank monitors) and access to the generator.

It would be interesting to calculate the volume of the forward cockpit and how much extra weight would be added if it was full of seawater; with big waves swamping the cockpit one would have to have a lot of faith in the drain you mention to avoid pitch poling.

[n2climbing]

Re: Forward Cockpit Issue - check this link (you might need to join the Yahoo Leopard Owners Group):
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/15011

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by geoff326

It would be interesting to calculate the volume of the forward cockpit and how much extra weight would be added if it was full of seawater; with big waves swamping the cockpit one would have to have a lot of faith in the drain you mention to avoid pitch poling.

The drain is larger is that any cockpit drains I have ever seen.

[Boatguy30]

I think id buy a several year old 46 for I'm assuming the same money if I wanted a blue water boat.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by geoff326

Aren't we ignoring the elephant in the room here? I'm looking for a blue water Cat, but what concerns me, and I'm sure others, is the forward cockpit together with the access door.

Exactly. Having taken some unexpected greenies over the saloon roof on my cat already I dread to think what would have happened in the same conditions with a forward opening saloon. This would be a complete non starter for me in a bluewater cat (and who wants to actually own, as opposed to charter in nice coastal conditions, a cat that isnt bluewater capable?)

Just another example of the charter market desires compromising good boat design...

As to the Op question my 2c is charter a wider variety of cats before honing in on one maker.They all have their pluses and compromises and only through personal experience can you decide whats right for you and the admiral.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Barra

Just another example of the charter market desires compromising good boat design...

Leopard moves a lot of the Sunsail and Moorings charter boats from Cape Town on their bottoms.

I spoke with a couple of the delivery skippers before we crossed the South Atlantic. None expressed any concerns about the forward cockpit.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Leopard moves a lot of the Sunsail and Moorings charter boats from Cape Town on their bottoms.

I spoke with a couple of the delivery skippers before we crossed the South Atlantic. None expressed any concerns about the forward cockpit.

No offense mate but they are paid by Leopard so biting the hand that feeds you maybe

The delivered on bottoms is a valid point alright and a big part of their marketing but its getting less and less valid as these designs become more and more floating gin palace like.

Each to their own though and thats what CF is for. i think we can both agree that earlier leopard designs were more bluewater capable than the current crop yes?

[Cottontop]

Here's Leopard talking about its forward cockpit designs:

"After 3 years of production, and well over a hundred Leopard 44s sailing the 7 seas, the facts speak for themselves: the Leopard 44 is a sound vessel, with an immensely safe and functional forward cockpit, that has already been duplicated on the larger Leopard models as well."

"The first opportunity Leopard had to gain official support for this new design feature was when manufacturer Robertson & Caine applied for certification of the Leopard 44 by the North American and European agencies.
Upon detailed inspection of the design, and the build practices employed in producing the Leopard 44, both the International Marine Certification Institute (IMCI) and the National Marine Manufacturers Association confirmed she was built to the high standards set forth by International Standards Organization (ISO) and the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC).
Understanding that the yachts were now rated and certified for offshore passage making, it was time to bring this new catamaran with the forward cockpit to our customers.

Leopard 44 Forward Cockpit Drainage Rate vs Requirements
Organization

International Organization for Standardization American Boat & Yacht Council
Required Drainage Rate
90% of volume in a maximum of 5 minutes 75% of volume in a maximum of 90 seconds

Leopard 44 forward cockpit drains 100% in 45 seconds"

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Here's Leopard talking about its forward cockpit designs:

"After 3 years of production, and well over a hundred Leopard 44s sailing the 7 seas, the facts speak for themselves: the Leopard 44 is a sound vessel, with an immensely safe and functional forward cockpit, that has already been duplicated on the larger Leopard models as well."

"The first opportunity Leopard had to gain official support for this new design feature was when manufacturer Robertson & Caine applied for certification of the Leopard 44 by the North American and European agencies.
Upon detailed inspection of the design, and the build practices employed in producing the Leopard 44, both the International Marine Certification Institute (IMCI) and the National Marine Manufacturers Association confirmed she was built to the high standards set forth by International Standards Organization (ISO) and the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC).
Understanding that the yachts were now rated and certified for offshore passage making, it was time to bring this new catamaran with the forward cockpit to our customers.

Leopard 44 Forward Cockpit Drainage Rate vs Requirements
Organization

International Organization for Standardization American Boat & Yacht Council
Required Drainage Rate
90% of volume in a maximum of 5 minutes 75% of volume in a maximum of 90 seconds

Leopard 44 forward cockpit drains 100% in 45 seconds"

thanks informative post but Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that there are not "well over 100 44s sailing the 7 seas". The vast majority would be in charter in the the usual charter hubs - very different. Personally I havnt seen a privately owned 44 yet out of perhaps a dozen sighted in the med.

If thats what you want then go for it but just recognise its a compromise just like everything else in a boat design.

[Boatguy30]

That drain standard seems awfully slow. What's a typical wave interval?

Anyhow, I'm not biased against the front cockpit deal as long as it's a VERY strong custom hatch. I also think the 46 is a very nice boat and dan personally confirm it sails quite well.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

That drain standard seems awfully slow. What's a typical wave interval?

Anyhow, I'm not biased against the front cockpit deal as long as it's a VERY strong custom hatch. I also think the 46 is a very nice boat and dan personally confirm it sails quite well.

Yeah I thought so too - the greenies we had in the cyclades this year were wind and wave against current and around 9 to 10 sec intervals - the drain wouldnt have done much at all - only a course change - but on this particular occasion we were 150 odd meters to a lee shore rounding an island so I wouldnt want to be forced into a course change due to a suddenly large bucket of water forward.

inexperienced crew at the helm or AP would present similar problems. Of course im talking about sailing to wind here in 25 plus knots though so not that common an occurance in the charter fleet maybe.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Barra

Personally I havnt seen a privately owned 44 yet out of perhaps a dozen sighted in the med.

I just sailed one from Cape Town to Fernando de Noronha, Brazil - 3500 miles. The owner took it from there to Trinidad / Tobago.

A couple of Sunsail 444s were getting ready for delivery on their bottoms - one for Thailand.