View Poll Results: Composite or Stainless Chainplates?
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Internal/External Composite Chainplates
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10 |
40.00% |
External Stainless Chainplates.
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15 |
60.00% |
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13-12-2021, 20:10
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 606
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Lots of good input here. Stainless seems to get the most approval. But has anyone considered Delrin plastic or high density polyethylene?
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13-12-2021, 20:13
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 3,286
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseldude
Lots of good input here. Stainless seems to get the most approval. But has anyone considered Delrin plastic or high density polyethylene?
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Both experience slow creep in tension and will deform with a long term load like standing rigging.
Matt
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13-12-2021, 22:19
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#78
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,561
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseldude
Lots of good input here. Stainless seems to get the most approval. But has anyone considered Delrin plastic or high density polyethylene?
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Not a likely material compared to 2205 s/s: tensile strength of Delrin is around 6kpsi to as much as 20kpsi, somewhat temperature dependent, and as mentioned above, creeps and flows under sustained high loads. 2205 s/s has a tensile strength of around 95 kpsi and does not creep.
The difference should be obvious, but IMO these thermoplastics are not at all suited for chainplate fabrication.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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13-12-2021, 23:40
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2018
Boat: 2015 Leopard 40
Posts: 19
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
I like these ideas, but are you another one who doesn’t understand what a composite chain plate is?
Why are you talking about oversized fasteners being a problem with composite chain plates?
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I am assuming you’ll still use fasteners for rig joints so…
Fibre Reinforced Resin is rather poor at handling point loads, especially around fasteners. Typically I design around larger diameter fasteners assemblies for high load composite components or mold heavy wall metal bushes into the part to increase life expectancy.
I’ve never designed a composite chain plate/clevis but would probably consider an Epoxy/Kevlar/Carbon schedule with knurled duplex bushes for cruising applications and drop the Kevlar and switch to titanium bushes for race parts where weight matters and catastrophic failure is (merely) ‘just a bad day’.
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14-12-2021, 00:36
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 128
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
"Composite - Have to hire a helper for complex composite lamination requiring 3 types of glass. Must hand laminate dozens of layers with epoxy that is painted over with polyester so I can go near the boat. Requires 2 employees. Have to buy epoxy and 3 types of glass. Chance employees could botch the lamination or leave bubbles. I can’t supervise (micro manage) that part."
why epoxy? as it is a seroius heath risk for you, the original boat isn't epoxy and you can use polyester resin for glass (not much good with carbon fibre) why not just use polyester and do it yourself?
If you are concerned that it won't be quite as strong just add a couple of extra laminiations of glass. the strength of the original plyester hull isnt a concern why would this extra bit be a concern?
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14-12-2021, 02:05
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fremantle
Posts: 560
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Paul2884
Read the whole thread.
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14-12-2021, 02:14
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fremantle
Posts: 560
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
@Jopinot; The standard practice seems to be a stainless tube followed by a glass skin to separate carbon from stainless and then the carbon or glass unidirectional.
In this application Kevlar has little to offer.
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14-12-2021, 04:56
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#83
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Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Caribbean live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 6,688
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
Hmmm. Surprises there are no strong opinions. This is similar to cat vs mono. Diesel vs electric. Ha ha.
I’ll add a poll for the shy types.
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I chose GR 5 titanium. See my photos nicholsen58.
The SS plates, all four, had micro crevice cracks just below deck. Titanium is light,worry free forever. I shopped the stock and had my machine shop do the fabrication. $200 each and a couple cases of beer.
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14-12-2021, 05:41
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,972
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul2884
the original boat isn't epoxy
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Chotu's boat (custom build) IS epoxy.
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14-12-2021, 07:30
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 3,286
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Chotu - Can you suit-up and filter the air (or bring own air supply) enough to even be around an infusion or laying of the chainplates? If so, can you hire someone for just the grunt work of prepping the surface?
The composite chainplates I've seen require the tow to cross from the inner to outer skin hull skins through a small slot at the deck. With some creativity, it seem like you could set-up an infusion instead of requiring someone else to hand laminate to an unknown quality. You could be there until just before the resin starts flowing and come back to check on progress (fully suited-up and your own air supply).
A little easier maybe to use prepeg. The helper could lay all the prepeg down in the right order (you could verify with your own air supply); cover and pull down the vacuum to check for leaks (you could verify with your own air supply); then hit it with 250F heat with infrared lamps until cured.
The final step for either would be to have the helper prime over the top to cover the glasswork to encapsulate it so you can eventually fair and paint yourself.
None of this is cheap, but it would give you the known quality you are looking for.
Can you just bolt the chainplates to your hull as it sits now? I'd imagine that you'd need to decore in that area and go to solid glass which still requires a lot of fiberglass work too.
Matt
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15-12-2021, 01:19
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2018
Boat: 2015 Leopard 40
Posts: 19
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redreuben
@Jopinot; The standard practice seems to be a stainless tube followed by a glass skin to separate carbon from stainless and then the carbon or glass unidirectional.
In this application Kevlar has little to offer.
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Sounds like a tidy layup option. (Kevlar is just the insurance policy for WSHTF)
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21-12-2021, 07:13
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 12,231
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Sorry for the delay. Just getting back to this thread now.
I had a really good look through the stainless chain plate project as according to the plans, and it’s just as involved as the composite chain plates. Might as well do the good ones I guess.
I suppose an infusion might be the way to go. I have never infused glass this thick before. With this many layers. Any tips on that? I did very big project before, for instance the hulls of the boat. It was no problem getting everything to wet out in the infusion. But, with really thick glass, is there a trick?
Also, I can’t even go in a boat with epoxy or come within hundreds of feet outside of one. My own air supply would work when I am in there, but once I left, I’d be hit with a anaphylactic reaction. It might even happen while I am in there with the air supply. Because it comes through your skin just as well as anything else. Even if I was all set in there with my air supply, the minute I left, my clothes would still be full of the contaminants (just from the air) and my skin would be also. And that would be it for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Johnson
Chotu - Can you suit-up and filter the air (or bring own air supply) enough to even be around an infusion or laying of the chainplates? If so, can you hire someone for just the grunt work of prepping the surface?
The composite chainplates I've seen require the tow to cross from the inner to outer skin hull skins through a small slot at the deck. With some creativity, it seem like you could set-up an infusion instead of requiring someone else to hand laminate to an unknown quality. You could be there until just before the resin starts flowing and come back to check on progress (fully suited-up and your own air supply).
A little easier maybe to use prepeg. The helper could lay all the prepeg down in the right order (you could verify with your own air supply); cover and pull down the vacuum to check for leaks (you could verify with your own air supply); then hit it with 250F heat with infrared lamps until cured.
The final step for either would be to have the helper prime over the top to cover the glasswork to encapsulate it so you can eventually fair and paint yourself.
None of this is cheap, but it would give you the known quality you are looking for.
Can you just bolt the chainplates to your hull as it sits now? I'd imagine that you'd need to decore in that area and go to solid glass which still requires a lot of fiberglass work too.
Matt
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21-12-2021, 07:37
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 12,231
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Would anyone care to help me interpret the plans?
The stainless chain plate option is mostly understandable but translating the drawings to a procedure for the composite chainplates is seemingly beyond my comprehension. Or medications are still making me stupid.
I can barely make heads or tails out of the bow tube/beam either.
Feeling like I’m in over my head on the rigging part.
Unfortunately, I can’t post them publicly since it’s the designer’s bread and butter, but I can share them privately for the purpose of interpretation.
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21-12-2021, 07:40
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#89
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Fremantle
Posts: 560
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
I would contact Rob Denny at Harryproa for advice on the infusion.
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21-12-2021, 07:50
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 12,231
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Re: Composite Chainplates or External Stainless Chainplates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redreuben
I would contact Rob Denny at Harryproa for advice on the infusion.
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Thank you. If I could understand the plans I’d probably have better questions to ask.
I will contact him once I have a clear understanding of what I’m supposed to do here.
I like that guy, by the way. He’s offered some solid advice before. Very creative.
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