Coast Guard advice for all Cat Sailors

[dougweibel]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

All pilots are supposed to read it.

I've been a pilot for over 25 years. I have never seen such a requirement.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by dougweibel

I've been a pilot for over 25 years. I have never seen such a requirement.

Professional pilots definitely do a lot of accident report reading as part of formal safety programs. Depending on who you did your private pilot training with they may or may not have emphasized it. A good way to learn lessons at far less expense than first hand experience regardless!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Heeled way over in a catamaran is not good......

It’s fine to be heeled way over - it’s only not good if the heel angle keeps increasing. Most cats still have positive righting moment at 70 degrees of heel, which sure as hell feels like 90 degrees and makes a hell of a splash when you come back down (right side up). Happened to me on a 40’ racing cat (the old XL2, a Crowther Super Shockwave). Cruising cats with high superstructure are a bit more at risk due to higher centre of gravity, but on the other hand have more stability due to displacement so are less likely to get to that angle in the first place.

We have a larger cruising cat and there is absolutely no need to wear pfds in any reasonable weather short of a full gale, and even then the cockpit is a long way from the edges and you are not exposed to the full weight of the weather. However our rules for PFD/harness include wearing them whenever you want to. It’s all about the risk profile and not about hard and fast rules on anything bigger than a beach cat.

Two of the safety features of a cat not often mentioned are (1) the main boom, sheets, and traveller are usually well out of the way of the cockpit and side decks, and (2) wide decks and minimal heel mean working at the mast or forward is much easier. These are the most common MOB mechanisms on monohulls.

[dougweibel]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Professional pilots definitely do a lot of accident report reading as part of formal safety programs. Depending on who you did your private pilot training with they may or may not have emphasized it. A good way to learn lessons at far less expense than first hand experience regardless!

I subscribed to Aviation Safety for many years and will not argue at all that it is a valuable resource. I would further agree that the aviation community, including general aviation, has a much greater emphasis on safety than the sailing community, and pays more attention to the lessons that can be learned from accident investigations and narratives.

However, a statement was made that pilots are "supposed to read it", implying there is a requirement. There is not. Perhaps by some pilots' employers, but certainly not in general.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It’s fine to be heeled way over - it’s only not good if the heel angle keeps increasing. Most cats still have positive righting moment at 70 degrees of heel, which sure as hell feels like 90 degrees and makes a hell of a splash when you come back down (right side up). Happened to me on a 40’ racing cat (the old XL2, a Crowther Super Shockwave). Cruising cats with high superstructure are a bit more at risk due to higher centre of gravity, but on the other hand have more stability due to displacement so are less likely to get to that angle in the first place.

We have a larger cruising cat and there is absolutely no need to wear pfds in any reasonable weather short of a full gale, and even then the cockpit is a long way from the edges and you are not exposed to the full weight of the weather. However our rules for PFD/harness include wearing them whenever you want to. It’s all about the risk profile and not about hard and fast rules on anything bigger than a beach cat.

Two of the safety features of a cat not often mentioned are (1) the main boom, sheets, and traveller are usually well out of the way of the cockpit and side decks, and (2) wide decks and minimal heel mean working at the mast or forward is much easier. These are the most common MOB mechanisms on monohulls.

You’re a braver and better sailor than I. Once a hull comes out of the water, stability decreases quickly. If your okay with that, go for it. Looking forward to a picture of your cat heeled at 70 degrees.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’ve noticed several times when flying that my phone can send and receive txts, but if you try a voice call, you will always get call failed.
Not sure why but assume when your at the fringe of reception small data packets can get through where a complex voice call cannot.
VHF I’d assume was due to them being inverted?

The report said the phone only had email which seems stranger than just texts.

Lucky they were close to help!

[catsketcher]

I get that it may not be legislated to read accident reports. I was given a couple of report magazines by a pilot friend who told me that he was supposed to read it. So I will defer to any pilot on this, still it seems like a good thing to use the resource.

As for lifejackets being dangerous, they can be, in certain circumstances. IN Australia we had law where surf sailboarders were exmpt from wearing lifejackets. Now all swimmers in a surf zone know that sometimes, it is safer to be down below the breaking waves than on the surface. When I bodysurf I get away from the nasty break by diving deep. You can't do this with a lifejacket on. NSW had laws that were influenced by Surf Lifesaving Australia and the Windsurfer Association that showed that lifejackets in surf zones COULD be dangerous. But then bureaucrats changed the law to keep them consistent.

My wife got pushed out of her sea kayak by a wave that broke further out from the break zone than normal. She was then washed into the break zone. Being a good bodysurfer she knew to get down away from the break but her PFD kept her in the break. She clung to a rock and I was able to buddy her out in my kayak but it would have been easier for her to be able to dive when she needed.

When dinghy sailing and sailboarding there are often times when the need to swim 10-20 metres really fast is vital. I raced Lasers and was a rep to the Laser worlds so I spent serious time in the boats. When offshore training on my own I did not wear a PFD but always had a full steamer wetsuit that allowed me to swim and kept me bouyant a bit. This is because a capsized Laser can float high and can drift in high winds faster than a swimmer with booties, spray jacket and lifejacket can. I have seen a fit competitor need to get rescued because he lost contact with his boat in a blow, because he couldn't swim fast enough.

Then there are the issues with getting people back on board a boat. We have swim steps on our boat and we can all get ourselves back on board but a bulky PFD makes this harder.

My problems with statements by the coastguard in the US and here in Australia is that they are mostly right, but often wrong. Most of the time I am fine without a lifejacket. I wear a harness inflatable PFD almost all the time offshore but if my cat flips I certainly don't want it to inflate. I don't want one to inflate if I fall in the water and my harness tether drags me along behind the boat. I can pull myself back to the boat up to 8 knots of speed, if I don't wear shoes and I am low drag - no bulky lifejacket.

My dad died because lifejackets weren't a thing in the 60s and he drowned after falling off a catamaran. I get that they are important. They are not the answer to everything though. Keep them very close, use them readily, but just not all the time.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I get that it may not be legislated to read accident reports. I was given a couple of report magazines by a pilot friend who told me that he was supposed to read it. So I will defer to any pilot on this, still it seems like a good thing to use the resource.

As for lifejackets being dangerous, they can be, in certain circumstances. IN Australia we had law where surf sailboarders were exmpt from wearing lifejackets. Now all swimmers in a surf zone know that sometimes, it is safer to be down below the breaking waves than on the surface. When I bodysurf I get away from the nasty break by diving deep. You can't do this with a lifejacket on. NSW had laws that were influenced by Surf Lifesaving Australia and the Windsurfer Association that showed that lifejackets in surf zones COULD be dangerous. But then bureaucrats changed the law to keep them consistent.

My wife got pushed out of her sea kayak by a wave that broke further out from the break zone than normal. She was then washed into the break zone. Being a good bodysurfer she knew to get down away from the break but her PFD kept her in the break. She clung to a rock and I was able to buddy her out in my kayak but it would have been easier for her to be able to dive when she needed.

When dinghy sailing and sailboarding there are often times when the need to swim 10-20 metres really fast is vital. I raced Lasers and was a rep to the Laser worlds so I spent serious time in the boats. When offshore training on my own I did not wear a PFD but always had a full steamer wetsuit that allowed me to swim and kept me bouyant a bit. This is because a capsized Laser can float high and can drift in high winds faster than a swimmer with booties, spray jacket and lifejacket can. I have seen a fit competitor need to get rescued because he lost contact with his boat in a blow, because he couldn't swim fast enough.

Then there are the issues with getting people back on board a boat. We have swim steps on our boat and we can all get ourselves back on board but a bulky PFD makes this harder.

My problems with statements by the coastguard in the US and here in Australia is that they are mostly right, but often wrong. Most of the time I am fine without a lifejacket. I wear a harness inflatable PFD almost all the time offshore but if my cat flips I certainly don't want it to inflate. I don't want one to inflate if I fall in the water and my harness tether drags me along behind the boat. I can pull myself back to the boat up to 8 knots of speed, if I don't wear shoes and I am low drag - no bulky lifejacket.

My dad died because lifejackets weren't a thing in the 60s and he drowned after falling off a catamaran. I get that they are important. They are not the answer to everything though. Keep them very close, use them readily, but just not all the time.

Great post, thank you for that

[ozsailer]

hello all,
maybe I have something wrong here, are the reports indicating that this boat turned turtle in 40 knot winds correct. By the comments it appears that this cat is a 36 foot cruising cat. If this cat was 36 foot and capsized in 40 knot winds then I would suggest that this boats design is badly flawed if it cannot sail or motor safely in 40 knots of wind. We have owned a Lagoon 410 and currenlty a lagoon 440. We test sailed the 410 in 30 to 35 knots wind and sailed in 40 knots plus winds with absolutley no issue. We have both boats anchored in 40 knots plus winds, once again nil issue and not the least bit concerned about the boat turning turtle. So what went wrong. Was the boat overcanvassed, equipment failure or something else.


Greg H
Lagoon 440

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

hello all,
maybe I have something wrong here, are the reports indicating that this boat turned turtle in 40 knot winds correct. By the comments it appears that this cat is a 36 foot cruising cat. If this cat was 36 foot and capsized in 40 knot winds then I would suggest that this boats design is badly flawed if it cannot sail or motor safely in 40 knots of wind. We have owned a Lagoon 410 and currenlty a lagoon 440. We test sailed the 410 in 30 to 35 knots wind and sailed in 40 knots plus winds with absolutley no issue. We have both boats anchored in 40 knots plus winds, once again nil issue and not the least bit concerned about the boat turning turtle. So what went wrong. Was the boat overcanvassed, equipment failure or something else.


Greg H
Lagoon 440

While I sail a Seawind 1000 with added sugar scoops which makes a 36 foot boat I have similar experiences. I have never felt any danger of my boat flipping while sailing (reefed with working jib only) in strong winds. I have been caught in a couple of gusts in excess of 50 knots and the windward hull did not get out of the water; I did take action before the gust hit the boat.

So far there has been no definitive ID of the boat. By some accounts it may not have really been 36 feet. In any case I agree that the question of 'what went wrong' needs to be answered.

From what I know about cats flipping it is often a case of not just high winds but waves as well. The cat seems to be on the face of a wave with the bridge deck exposed to wind. The combined forces of the wind and the angle the boat is on the wave provide enough force to flip the cat. I am not sure just how big waves get in the area but as a rule big waves are the result of a long stretch of open water where a strong wind can generate them. It is not common for big waves to happen during a quick storm.

In any case I still wanna know more about what happened.

[tp12]

I can't understand the willingness of some people to call 'unsafe design' before understanding the type of design, how it was being sailed, the weather and whether there was any operator error. Let's face it, it's usually operator error-not pulling enough sail down.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Wear Life Jackets At All Times.

More importantly, can someone identify this recently flipped Cat.

All crew rescued.

Something to bear in mind should you ever own a boat.

[Mystic38]

looks like a couple of Russian subs to me....

[kirklkjb]

Localized winds could have been much higher than forecast.

Also, all 8 survived and the boat was still floating well after the capsize.

[gatorman49]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’ve noticed several times when flying that my phone can send and receive txts, but if you try a voice call, you will always get call failed.
Not sure why but assume when your at the fringe of reception small data packets can get through where a complex voice call cannot.
VHF I’d assume was due to them being inverted?

Voice call uses significant bandwidth. Texting does not. Further, text signal repeat thus likelyhood of getting through crowded system or dealing with a weak signal.