Charter company claims we damage boat

[jmschmidt]

First lesson: You are obviously dealing with greedy people who don't care about your repeat business or apparently anyone else's business after they read about your experience.

Market research shows that if you piss off a customer he will tell ten people about it. But if you favorably impress people they will only tell three people about their great experience. It doesn't take a business genius to understand these implications.

Second Lesson: If dealing in Europe (or any foreign country) they know you will not attempt any legal action.

Third Lesson: Always use a US issued credit card. You are protect from fraud up to $250,000 by federal law and can always put a wrongful charge in dispute. (Not so with Debit Cards, don't use a debit cards, I don't even own one.) You will most always successful in a credit card dispute and have your funds restored by any major US card issuer, especially if you have some evidence, like the letter you mentioned.

Just pay the charter operator the money, let them keep your deposit, or whatever, and take it up back home.

[Dave_S]

I agree if the damaged part was not caused by negligence or willful damage then it's not to your account.

Do you have photos of the problem, I design and manufacture locks. It might be something I could guide you on.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but I had a beach house we used to rent out and the theft and negligence was unbelievable. We lost $1,000's in damages and theft. Turned out we lost money renting it. Best one was people chopping fire wood on the staircase. They must have been drunk because they missed a lot and chopped big gouges in the stairs. They denied it and insisted on evidence that this was not pre-existing. So the evidence trail works both ways.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Diving a charter boat before you accept it??? I bet that's a 1 in a 1000 chance anyone does that...

Problem is, some charter companies do dive the boat on it's return. If you dont check before you take it out, they could blame and charge you for pre existing damage.

[Seaadventurers]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Problem is, some charter companies do dive the boat on it's return. If you dont check before you take it out, they could blame and charge you for pre existing damage.

They dove on our boat and a sister boat. The sister boat was a different charter company, and they claimed the boat had scratches. I’m not sure how, but they avoid d any charges.

[Seaadventurers]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I agree if the damaged part was not caused by negligence or willful damage then it's not to your account.

Do you have photos of the problem, I design and manufacture locks. It might be something I could guide you on.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but I had a beach house we used to rent out and the theft and negligence was unbelievable. We lost $1,000's in damages and theft. Turned out we lost money renting it. Best one was people chopping fire wood on the staircase. They must have been drunk because they missed a lot and chopped big gouges in the stairs. They denied it and insisted on evidence that this was not pre-existing. So the evidence trail works both ways.

Here are the photos I took, but I’m not sure they are worth much. The first picture just shows the slot in the door where the catch is. It had fallen down into the slot. The second shows an aluminum piece that was removed from the latch and it is clearly broken.

[Lihuedooley77]

I Have bare boat chartered sailing and motor vessels for over 34 years, in half the known world. Not only with moorings, sunsail, and conch, and sun charters, and emerald isle cruises ireland, but many, many sailing club vessels. SOP, we spend about 1.5 to 2 hrs inspecting the vessel.

We note all of the problems before we sign off and depart the docks. Period.

As skipper my responsibility is the safety of the vessel , the crew, and the passengers.


Most times we find several things that do not work or are damaged.
That includes the entire boat, port to starboard, forward and aft. as well electronic an electrical systems. Water pressure systems, head systems. And even the ships mag compass, and the auto pilot compass. ( I have my hand bearing compass that we bring along with us, I match up the heading of the ships compass with my hand bearing compass.)

We have had a ripped mainsail with the moorings, that we found when checking the main and the reefing systems. Huge hole /tear just above the main sail tack. I could tell the sail was improperly hoisted, damage was due to the ram's horn and a twisted luff at the tack. Rubbed totally thu the main.

I called the check out staffs' attention to that, and he said the sail loft would bring a new sail. Now this was the Moorings in Tortola. Never happened, I finally told them we would double reef the main for the entire trip. There would be no pressure what so ever on the torn area of the main. That was in writing as well.

I always note every squawk I find prior to departure.

I also had a long list of other problems that I found during the two weeks . They totaled 16 descripancies, some very important. I had those all noted for the person who came down to do our Moorings mono hull post sail check .

I read off every descrapancy from my notes....they did not mark down a single one, including the mainsail. Nor the auto pilot compass that was 45 degrees off the binnacle compass heading ( the binnacle compass was correct. )

For those bare boating, this is only one small tale, as there have been many many other incidents. Dead Batteries, oil filter loose that fell off when I checked for it security ( 51 foot benetearu in Tahiti ) .

It may be acceptable for some folks to say they do not note or inform or go thru a very serious and complete check of the vessel before they depart. Well, be prepared, as you will be found responsible for anything that you may have missed or not even inspected.

We have had reefing lines rigged totally wrong, and re-ran them before we left, since I check out the reefing system before we leave the docks.

Usually get an early boarding the day before and take the time to do our very thorough personal inspections. And any problems are noted and given to them before we leave for our two week sailing vacation.

We also load our own provisions and gear the previous night and pretty well have the boat ready to go, before the system check out staff even gets on board on departure day. We have figured out most of the systems and inventory, but still shut up and listen to the briefer.

I am the skipper and I am responsible for the entire vessel. I have no excuse if I do not take that responsibility in a serious and seaman ship type of manner.

And what happens, the person who previously sailed the vessel, busted something, lost inventory, or did not report it. The dock and cleaning staff dont really understand boats and systems, so they also let it slide.

Then along comes the next charter person, and off they go with the problem pre exisitng, but no one knew or paid attention or used a check list...zero notification to the charter company.... YOU ARE GONNA PAY.

IN 34 years and thousands of days skippering bare boats or with sailing clubs, I have never been charged for anything that was pre exisiting. Because I noted it before departing the docks. Never,.

What I do observe, is a group of people getting on board their bare boat, getting their pre depature check or in the case of a sailing club they cram the guests on board and check off the squares, and are out of the docks in maybe 10 minutes or so.

To each their own as to what skippers responsibility means.

We can only continue to do our own pre sailing checks, and of course pay attention to the pre departure briefing .

Just ran into this situation, kind of a sailing club with the owner of the boat. I checked the engine oil and also removed the companion way ladder to inspect the engine room.

The engine and engine room were covered in oil, the dip stick was tight and secured.
The interior of the companion way ladder was painted in oil, the oil drip pan under the engine was a lake of oil, the engine was covered in oil.

The ships compass, I showed the owner of the vessel that the plastic clear cover was so opake , scratched, and weathererd, that I could not read the compass card headings. No biggie, he had jury rigged a hand held GPS to the binnacle with lose wires hanging out....well not for this sailor. And we were due to take this vessel to Catalina saland for a seven day cruise.

Even tho i quietly stressed the engine room situation, The owner did inspect or look at the engine room, he sat behind the wheel and started the engine. He and others were going out for a day motor. Not us, we politely said that we had changed our minds, and helped push him out of the docks and set up the dock lines at the proper length for when they returned. Keep it easy on them.

Oh, and the jib stay had a problem and the jib sail was folded up in the V-berth.

Over the years, we have found many problems when thoroughly inspecting a vessel,.

Now, that is our way, others are free to do whatever they wish.

[Seaadventurers]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

I Have bare boat chartered sailing and motor vessels for over 34 years, in half the known world. Not only with moorings, sunsail, and conch, and sun charters, and emerald isle cruises ireland, but many, many sailing club vessels. SOP, we spend about 1.5 to 2 hrs inspecting the vessel.

We note all of the problems before we sign off and depart the docks. Period.

As skipper my responsibility is the safety of the vessel , the crew, and the passengers.


Most times we find several things that do not work or are damaged.
That includes the entire boat, port to starboard, forward and aft. as well electronic an electrical systems. Water pressure systems, head systems. And even the ships mag compass, and the auto pilot compass. ( I have my hand bearing compass that we bring along with us, I match up the heading of the ships compass with my hand bearing compass.)

We have had a ripped mainsail with the moorings, that we found when checking the main and the reefing systems. Huge hole /tear just above the main sail tack. I could tell the sail was improperly hoisted, damage was due to the ram's horn and a twisted luff at the tack. Rubbed totally thu the main.

I called the check out staffs' attention to that, and he said the sail loft would bring a new sail. Now this was the Moorings in Tortola. Never happened, I finally told them we would double reef the main for the entire trip. There would be no pressure what so ever on the torn area of the main. That was in writing as well.

I always note every squawk I find prior to departure.

I also had a long list of other problems that I found during the two weeks . They totaled 16 descripancies, some very important. I had those all noted for the person who came down to do our Moorings mono hull post sail check .

I read off every descrapancy from my notes....they did not mark down a single one, including the mainsail. Nor the auto pilot compass that was 45 degrees off the binnacle compass heading ( the binnacle compass was correct. )

For those bare boating, this is only one small tale, as there have been many many other incidents. Dead Batteries, oil filter loose that fell off when I checked for it security ( 51 foot benetearu in Tahiti ) .

It may be acceptable for some folks to say they do not note or inform or go thru a very serious and complete check of the vessel before they depart. Well, be prepared, as you will be found responsible for anything that you may have missed or not even inspected.

We have had reefing lines rigged totally wrong, and re-ran them before we left, since I check out the reefing system before we leave the docks.

Usually get an early boarding the day before and take the time to do our very thorough personal inspections. And any problems are noted and given to them before we leave for our two week sailing vacation.

We also load our own provisions and gear the previous night and pretty well have the boat ready to go, before the system check out staff even gets on board on departure day. We have figured out most of the systems and inventory, but still shut up and listen to the briefer.

I am the skipper and I am responsible for the entire vessel. I have no excuse if I do not take that responsibility in a serious and seaman ship type of manner.

And what happens, the person who previously sailed the vessel, busted something, lost inventory, or did not report it. The dock and cleaning staff dont really understand boats and systems, so they also let it slide.

Then along comes the next charter person, and off they go with the problem pre exisitng, but no one knew or paid attention or used a check list...zero notification to the charter company.... YOU ARE GONNA PAY.

IN 34 years and thousands of days skippering bare boats or with sailing clubs, I have never been charged for anything that was pre exisiting. Because I noted it before departing the docks. Never,.

What I do observe, is a group of people getting on board their bare boat, getting their pre depature check or in the case of a sailing club they cram the guests on board and check off the squares, and are out of the docks in maybe 10 minutes or so.

To each their own as to what skippers responsibility means.

We can only continue to do our own pre sailing checks, and of course pay attention to the pre departure briefing .

Just ran into this situation, kind of a sailing club with the owner of the boat. I checked the engine oil and also removed the companion way ladder to inspect the engine room.

The engine and engine room were covered in oil, the dip stick was tight and secured.
The interior of the companion way ladder was painted in oil, the oil drip pan under the engine was a lake of oil, the engine was covered in oil.

The ships compass, I showed the owner of the vessel that the plastic clear cover was so opake , scratched, and weathererd, that I could not read the compass card headings. No biggie, he had jury rigged a hand held GPS to the binnacle with lose wires hanging out....well not for this sailor. And we were due to take this vessel to Catalina saland for a seven day cruise.

Even tho i quietly stressed the engine room situation, The owner did inspect or look at the engine room, he sat behind the wheel and started the engine. He and others were going out for a day motor. Not us, we politely said that we had changed our minds, and helped push him out of the docks and set up the dock lines at the proper length for when they returned. Keep it easy on them.

Oh, and the jib stay had a problem and the jib sail was folded up in the V-berth.

Over the years, we have found many problems when thoroughly inspecting a vessel,.

Now, that is our way, others are free to do whatever they wish.

First of all, you are NOT checking no out all systems on the boat in 1.5 to 2 hours. It takes me an hour to go through the boat and note how things work and where things are. My focus in the past has not been on what is broken or does not work. EVERY charter that I have taken has had issues. Some of those issues could have been discovered with some due diligence but others could not have been or we had a new problem arise. I have never been charged for any of the issues we have had during a charter. In fact, I consider it a valuable service that I am providing the charter company with things that need to be fixed.

[calin1967]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Diving a charter boat before you accept it??? I bet that's a 1 in a 1000 chance anyone does that...

Of course... unless you are in Croatia

[Lihuedooley77]

Diving the boat...before departing on a bare boat charter.

We have not done that, but we do look at the bow, stern transom, and check both sides of the hull for any damage, scrapes, and check rudder and wheel, engine op and throttle and tranny operation, engine room oil, coolant, belts, leaks etc.

in fact we will have on person at the engine controls in the cockpit start the engine, as the other is observing the engine compartmet for any leaks. Let it run a bit.


We also inspect all top side areas and the hatches.

We also, flake out the anchor chain and line, on deck to check the rode for chafing, and that the anchor is moused. We pace off the chain and the anchor line for lengths and note it in our log. We return it to the anchor locker and make sure the chain and line will run free, no tangle snags.

And check the operation of the windlass. And, make sure the safety line from the anchor to a cleat is secure if the anchor is on a bow roller. If not provided on board, we bring 50' of extra line for whatever may be needed.

In the BVI, and Australia, and Tahiti, later at anchor or on a mooring, we do snorkel and check out the hull, prop and rudder. Also after anchoring or mooring we snorkel to check depth, and some cases how much clearance that we have from the bottom of the keel to the sand or mud. Especially White Bay, Jost Van Dyke, and Anegada, BVI
.

As to diving situations, in some instances upon returning the vessel, the charter companies will snorkel and check the vessel below the water line when we arrive, just outside of the marina. Checking for hull or rudder or prop damage. That procedure is pretty rare now adays . Never had a problem.

As to the length of time of our inspections. Our personal choice to spend what ever time it takes to do our personal inspection, as well as stowing provisions, gear, checking inventory and locations, making up berths, rigging the vessel for sea. checking all of the systems, etc.

Do we miss some things, sure, it can happen, especially once we are underway. But, we immediately note those situations, and date them. Some, we can fix or by-pass.
Anything major that occurs during the charter, we call the base. Seldom does that happen.

Oh, and also we check the dinghy for safety gear, oars, water bailer, fuel, anchor and engine operation and painter. We have our own flare up light that we use at night.

We only have the two of us on board, ( both experienced ) so life is made easy.

We love to sail , and I mean sail. Last 2 - two week sailing vacations ( 15 and 16) in the BVI , we used 7.0 and 7.2 gallons of fuel. Mostly to charge the batteries.

The BVi really are a great cruising ground.

( here I go off topic again )

Wishing you all great sailing and bare boat charter experiences if chartering.

Brisk winds and speedy passages.

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Unless the latch was damaged through negligence you should not be responsible for it's repair. If a latch breaks during the normal course of business it was at the end of it's life.

Agreed 100%. How exactly does one negligently break a door latch? Nothing lasts forever, and if you're going to be in the business of chartering, "normal wear and tear" should not be an alien concept to you.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Seaadventurers

Here are the photos I took, but I’m not sure they are worth much. The first picture just shows the slot in the door where the catch is. It had fallen down into the slot. The second shows an aluminum piece that was removed from the latch and it is clearly broken.

I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I'm assuming this is an internal part or is it the actual latch or hook from a sliding door.

Do you know what the part does?

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I agree that $300 for a door latch makes me think this is a scam.

300 Euros = $351 approx

[Jammer]

This thread is going a long way toward curing my desire to book a bareboat charter.

[bumpman]

I totally agree with a thorough boat check, not only to avoid costs for someone else's damage but for the safety of you and your family/friends. In St. Vincent, we almost had a capsize of a chartered catamaran in large seas due to the DIY job of the boat owner, who improperly made his own thru hull for a water line from his DIY frige install and who didn't inform the charter company of this (shoddy) work. The work was so bad that I'm sure the charter company would not have allowed the vessel to be chartered. The thru hull was behind a bulkhead that was not even visible for my lengthy inspection (I doing the sail/mechanical/electrical while family members doing the cosmetic - and ending up with 2 pages of notes to hand to the charterer). Fortunately while I was at the helm one of my family members went below and found the hull nearly full of water. It then took us a while (while doing a bucket brigade along with inadequate bilge pumps) to even find out how sea water was coming in.

With due diligence and a responsible company, chartering can still be fun, enjoyable, and safe. In the BVI I did 5 bare-boats with Conch and never had a problem. They always took responsibility for problems and repairs, even by sending out personnel to do a fix during the charter.

[Fbfisher]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

I Have bare boat chartered sailing and motor vessels for over 34 years, in half the known world. Not only with moorings, sunsail, and conch, and sun charters, and emerald isle cruises ireland, but many, many sailing club vessels. SOP, we spend about 1.5 to 2 hrs inspecting the vessel.

We note all of the problems before we sign off and depart the docks. Period.

As skipper my responsibility is the safety of the vessel , the crew, and the passengers.


Most times we find several things that do not work or are damaged.
That includes the entire boat, port to starboard, forward and aft. as well electronic an electrical systems. Water pressure systems, head systems. And even the ships mag compass, and the auto pilot compass. ( I have my hand bearing compass that we bring along with us, I match up the heading of the ships compass with my hand bearing compass.)

We have had a ripped mainsail with the moorings, that we found when checking the main and the reefing systems. Huge hole /tear just above the main sail tack. I could tell the sail was improperly hoisted, damage was due to the ram's horn and a twisted luff at the tack. Rubbed totally thu the main.

I called the check out staffs' attention to that, and he said the sail loft would bring a new sail. Now this was the Moorings in Tortola. Never happened, I finally told them we would double reef the main for the entire trip. There would be no pressure what so ever on the torn area of the main. That was in writing as well.

I always note every squawk I find prior to departure.

I also had a long list of other problems that I found during the two weeks . They totaled 16 descripancies, some very important. I had those all noted for the person who came down to do our Moorings mono hull post sail check .

I read off every descrapancy from my notes....they did not mark down a single one, including the mainsail. Nor the auto pilot compass that was 45 degrees off the binnacle compass heading ( the binnacle compass was correct. )

For those bare boating, this is only one small tale, as there have been many many other incidents. Dead Batteries, oil filter loose that fell off when I checked for it security ( 51 foot benetearu in Tahiti ) .

It may be acceptable for some folks to say they do not note or inform or go thru a very serious and complete check of the vessel before they depart. Well, be prepared, as you will be found responsible for anything that you may have missed or not even inspected.

We have had reefing lines rigged totally wrong, and re-ran them before we left, since I check out the reefing system before we leave the docks.

Usually get an early boarding the day before and take the time to do our very thorough personal inspections. And any problems are noted and given to them before we leave for our two week sailing vacation.

We also load our own provisions and gear the previous night and pretty well have the boat ready to go, before the system check out staff even gets on board on departure day. We have figured out most of the systems and inventory, but still shut up and listen to the briefer.

I am the skipper and I am responsible for the entire vessel. I have no excuse if I do not take that responsibility in a serious and seaman ship type of manner.

And what happens, the person who previously sailed the vessel, busted something, lost inventory, or did not report it. The dock and cleaning staff dont really understand boats and systems, so they also let it slide.

Then along comes the next charter person, and off they go with the problem pre exisitng, but no one knew or paid attention or used a check list...zero notification to the charter company.... YOU ARE GONNA PAY.

IN 34 years and thousands of days skippering bare boats or with sailing clubs, I have never been charged for anything that was pre exisiting. Because I noted it before departing the docks. Never,.

What I do observe, is a group of people getting on board their bare boat, getting their pre depature check or in the case of a sailing club they cram the guests on board and check off the squares, and are out of the docks in maybe 10 minutes or so.

To each their own as to what skippers responsibility means.

We can only continue to do our own pre sailing checks, and of course pay attention to the pre departure briefing .

Just ran into this situation, kind of a sailing club with the owner of the boat. I checked the engine oil and also removed the companion way ladder to inspect the engine room.

The engine and engine room were covered in oil, the dip stick was tight and secured.
The interior of the companion way ladder was painted in oil, the oil drip pan under the engine was a lake of oil, the engine was covered in oil.

The ships compass, I showed the owner of the vessel that the plastic clear cover was so opake , scratched, and weathererd, that I could not read the compass card headings. No biggie, he had jury rigged a hand held GPS to the binnacle with lose wires hanging out....well not for this sailor. And we were due to take this vessel to Catalina saland for a seven day cruise.

Even tho i quietly stressed the engine room situation, The owner did inspect or look at the engine room, he sat behind the wheel and started the engine. He and others were going out for a day motor. Not us, we politely said that we had changed our minds, and helped push him out of the docks and set up the dock lines at the proper length for when they returned. Keep it easy on them.

Oh, and the jib stay had a problem and the jib sail was folded up in the V-berth.

Over the years, we have found many problems when thoroughly inspecting a vessel,.

Now, that is our way, others are free to do whatever they wish.

I wish I had more people like you chartering my boat, which spends a lot of time going between Catalina Island and Marina Del Rey, CA. I use a prominent charter/club to manage the charters, but I screen every single charter prospect. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the charter companies only care about getting the boat out on charter. They don't find the issues created by negligent or stupid "skippers" and/or their guests. The boat cleaners missed the fact the both freshwater quiet flush heads were fouled with tampons. Nope, they clean, and that's it. So the charter companies don't know which charter is really responsible. So they bill whomever they can get to pay.

Cheers!