Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by The_Bean

You mentioned a whole list of specs earlier and were wondering if you could get them all. I think you will be able keep them all and have a few extra that you were not expecting

To be honest the Admiral seems like a good deal.
What's the bridgedeck clearance like? (I've been told it is very low.)
What's the light airs performance like?
Do you have drawings of the interior lay-out, or do you know where I can find them?

[schoonerdog]

This is their website:

Admiral Yachts Home

It's an Angelo Lavranos design, which tend to be very good sailors (streamlined profile, large net forward reducing weight). After you look at enough catamarans you can tell a good sailor vs a poor one, if it has a streamlined profile, and keep in mind that the more of the square profile is filled either going forward or up, the worse of a sailor it will be because additional structure means windage and weight.

Bridgedeck clearance will be a tad smaller than some of the French, but literally your talking a couple inches difference and well within the acceptable modern ocean going range. There are some cats which were made with very low clearance, but frankly they are either designed specifically to be a coastal cruiser (like the gemini), or they aren't made anymore. Layout should be on the Admiral website.

[The_Bean]

ADMIRAL Layout & bridge deck height

Bridgedeck clearance: 0.65 m (2 ft 2 in)

[schoonerdog]

I mentioned all of those points in the "Cons" section.

The MKII was raised and good bridge deck clearance specifically for that point. I don't have the exact amount, but imagine it's probably about 3 inches less than the typical French boat. The previous version was about 4 or 5 inches less than the Mk II, probably a little shorter than most would want.

As to head clearance,
"Head clearance is over 6 ft everywhere except for the aft cabins, where it is about 5 11", again, perfect for kids and done to reduce the windage and weight". The owners cabin are the two forward cabins which have over 6 ft of clearance, the aft cabins I would either use as a pantry or for kids, not adults. We personally will be using the larger forward cabin as a guest room, the aft cabin we'll redo to be a work area and pantry and the other aft cabin is perfect for our son till he becomes a teenager (13 years from now). But again, it makes it less of an attractive charter boat and frankly therefore makes it more affordable.

As to births,

As to the size of the births aft, they are a "double" I believe, the next size down from a queen. This is what I had said in the previous message in the cons section Births "aft are more suited for kids than adults, which make them a fine family cruiser, but not a good charter". Clearance above these births would also make them more suited for kids than adults, especially large adults.

As to number of heads:

"It is a four cabin, four head model typically, which is unnecessary for a owner oriented boat. Some have made an aft cabin into a pantry which offers amazing storage, really well done. We plan to do the same with our boat as well. Many families with 3 kids go cruising and everyone has their one cabin and own head and get the boat expressly for this feature".

I'm definitely not trying to oversell the boat, it has it's faults as well as it's benefits (as they all do). What brokers who are also new boat brokers don't often mention is to get large births aft you have to make compromises, you either have to have those births protrude over the bridgedeck which creates an obstruction to any waves over a few inches high or your fatten the entire aft part of the hull. Ironically, some French boats with the most "clearance" underneath often have these shelves sticking out. I know many delivery captains who were looking at the specs of their Cats they were delivering and wondering why they actually didn't sail as well as they were spec'd to. Then they looked underneath and saw the way the water was flowing under the bridge deck and saw the waves caused by the interference from the aft births. Of course widening the entire hulls creates more wetted area aft and also detracts from performance, often drastically.

I think personally agree with you that I just want a two head boat, so I'm taking my aft heads and converting them to wet lockers and pantry and just keeping the forward heads. Many other cats use the central hulls for heads, which having the engines amidships prevents, so they had to make a design choice. Of the cats in her class, used 44 ft, only the Catana 44, the Outremer 45, the shuttleworth Advantage 44 would I suspect would be better or equal sailors. Also, of those listed, I would say of the Outremer, her usable room inside would be significantly less than the St Francis. The Catana would be superior inside though in terms of layout, but they are probably double the cost of the St Francis. Hence my unscientific choice when I bought ours (which was after living aboard and cruising another cat for 5 years) that for the performance and for the layout, though it's not best of breed in any of these areas, it was by far the most boat for the money (our budget was 250k).

Also, one factor I refused to compromise on was having good water tight compartments forward and aft. That alone eliminated more than 3/4s of the boats I was looking at.

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

This sounds really good.

I've done some checking around and was told that even the St. Francis MkII has a low bridedeck clearance (how high is it?), that there is insufficient headroom in places, the berths aft are small and it has 4 heads (I really wouldn't want more than 2). I'm very curious what you think about those points.

Is there a place where I can see a drawing of the lay-out? I've looked around, but can't seem to find any.

[Lodesman]

I was under the impression the Admiral was balsa-cored throughout, including below the waterline - is that correct?

[schoonerdog]

As to bridge deck clearance, I think with the original it was spec'd at "2 ft", with the Mk II it is around three inches more than that, around 27 inches. Again, around 3" less than most french cats. But frankly, she's also several thousand pounds less than many of the french cats, so she will tend to raise much faster on a wave and that would reduce her pounding than a much heavier boat with slightly more clearance. Also, the clearance forward is excellent since her bridgedeck structure doesn't begin until far aft. I've cruised an 1990 PDQ 36 for years, before they raised up the bridge deck clearance with the later models, and it had 10 inches of clearance underneath the first step in. THAT was loud when in a stormy anchorage with steep short and quick waves hitting you every minute, but even then, it really wasn't anything that would prevent my wife or I from getting a good night sleep and when sailing, unless you were close hauled, it wasn't a factor at all. So I'd say don't get for an ocean crosser something that has horrible clearance because there are so many better models available, but if someone is trying to say 3 inches is the end of the world, then I would consider that more of a sales pitch than an honest attempt to let you know what matters.

[The_Bean]

Hull Specs - Admiral

HULL
(constructed to designer specification utilizing)
• Resin approved by Lloyds, SABS and ISO 9002
• Gelcoat approved by Lloyds, SABS and ISO 9002
• A tissue layer is applied to the gelcoat throughout to prevent osmosis
• Lloyds approved 19mm Balsa core in sandwich construction vacuum bagged onto glass layer.
• Chop strand mat and a stitched quad axil mat approved by Lloyds SABS and ISO 9002
• Deck specifications are the same as the hull
• All reinforcing around chain plates and cross beam
• All reinforcing around winch and blocks
• 5 Coats of International water-proofing epoxy is rolled over gelcoat below the waterline to prevent osmosis
• 2 x Coats of International anti-foul

[schoonerdog]

look at the link for this cat and you'll see what I'm talking about for a shelf. She features a huge aft birth, but to have that birth you have to have a significant protrusion coming out. The larger the birth, the larger the protrusion. It's also one of the reasons I personally think catamarans get a bad rap for weight loaded down. If someone were to put a large dingy on this boat, it would push the transom down and those shelves would then drag.

YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale=

[schoonerdog]

regarding Admiral balsa core, here's a reply from the factory.



The balsa core extends to below the waterline, just shy of the bilge. We have yet to come across a boat with rot in the core, as it being end grain, does not wick water at any fast rate if the hull is compromised. If one does get damage, one must repair the area temporarily until a proper fix can be carried out.
We have had more issues with foam core boats.

Regards

Kent

[schoonerdog]

Lodesman,

have had more conversations on this with factory reps (can you tell I really like catamarans far too much) and this type of coring isn't done only on the Admiral, but is done on the Moorings/Leapord as well, which have over 400 hundred boats all without issue, so it isn't unheard of and has been well tested. Naturally though people will have preferences of what they wish to use.

[44'cruisingcat]

Re balsa vs foam coring. I recently learned that Schionnings have a kit for the same boat available with either balsa or foam cored Duflex. As you would expect the foam cored boat costs, more, but it also WEIGHS more. This is because balsa is structurally so much better as a core that to compensate, heavier laminates, and in some cases thicker cores have to be used in the foam.

[schoonerdog]

I think that depends on the type of core being used, even the same product name often comes with several formulations depending upon use, the strength, temperatures spreads and density desired. Of the worlds most fastest racer/cruisers, all use synthetic. Catana, Outremer, Shuttleworth, Gunboat, African cats...although they probably all do balsa for high stress areas.

[44'cruisingcat]

I think a lot of production boat builders use foam because there is still an anti-balsa prejudice with many buyers though.

[Lodesman]

Why do you suppose there is a prejudice against balsa? I personally didn't see a problem with balsa-core above the waterline and was certainly open to arguments in favour of its use below WL. I just wonder why they would extend it just below the waterline then make the rest of the bottom of solid laminate (assuming that's what it is?) if there have been no problems with water getting in the core? BTW, If you ding your bottom on a passage (log, shipping container, w-h-y...) what options are available for a temporary fix?

Kevin

[DotDun]

I've owned a FP 43 Belize for the past 3.5 years. Great boat! But multihulls are still discriminated against. Living in SW Florida, I can't get hauled without an all day sail, so one must plan their emergencies! Majority of marinas can handle up to a 20 foot beam. Only if we had higher tides, I could beach it!

I haven't done any bluewater sailing, just the Bahamas and Florida Keys. But I have had the luxury of experiencing 10 foot close square waves in the Gulf of Mexico. Although the boat was fine and I felt safe, if you don't get the nose at least 45 off the wind/waves, the pounding will wake the dead. I'm sure this is a characteristic of all multihulls, nothing particular to FP. I'm sure one can find waves that will pound under any cat.

On the bright side, a few weeks back I was heading north from Key West in 30k winds (38k gusts) on the beam, 5-7 foot seas. Triple reefed main and head sail, the boat was very stable and scooting along at 7.5k. A couple of big waves got the crew wet, told 'em that shouldn't sit out there! That is what sailing is all about. (The powerboaters stayed home that day!)

A few things about my FP Belize.

The keels are NOT an integral part of the hull. Hit something, no hull breach, no water inside. It scares me on other boats to lift a cabin sole and see a hollow keel with a bilge pump 3 feet down in a 3 inch wide opening. Besides the possibility of water coming in from breaching the keel, how would one ever change that bilge pump?

The boat has tons of room, which can mean tons of weight also! Although a double-edge sword, we don't lack things when cruising.

I stress about my saildrives, but I don't know why. I haven't had any problems other than Yanmar's stupid prop nut system. I'm just not sure how I like gearboxes full of oil hanging in the water. This probably stems from me not being able to lift the boat whenever the mood strikes me.

The boat is well thought out for the cruiser, solid bulkheads between engine rooms and living space including the spot for a huge genset. I wouldn't like raising sheets and mattress to check engine oil. We've never smelled diesel anything in the living space!

The berths are fantastic, slats under the mattresses, not simple foam over plywood.

I think the quality is excellent. Heavy duty rigging. Good access for running wires with 75% of the wire channels open from the factory.

Like they say, there is no perfect boat, but that's why I'm keeping mine! It's best I can find for now!

Dot Dun
FP Belize 43
hull #91