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Old 02-03-2017, 17:52   #16
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Motor reliability for charging batteries through CLOUDY STORMY BAD WEATHER EVENTS, and self rescue if dismasted, is important to those that don't have the rescue services on speed dial.

I suspect some think that those nasty waves will never swamp their outboads no matter how rough it gets.I guess the tradeoffs are cheaper and lighter "V" reliability when the chips are down.

I forgot about Big Wave Rider, I'll add that to the other Chamberlain boats that have capsized.


May I add, Lrfiori, that as you appear to have little multihull experience, and a multihull requires vigilance and experience from the crew to stay upright. If short handed, crew can only stay attentive for so long. After that the boat has to be able to look after itself. Something that a light, high windage multi with tall rig is going to struggle with.


If we were gullible enough to believe half what you say, it would seem you find your boat to be extremely disappointing, slow, uncomfortable, dangerous and difficult to sail .

And as we're repeatedly told, monohulls represent far better value.

So why on earth do you keep buying cat's? Have you some kind of learning disability? Surely for the money you've spent on catamarans you could have bought a truly wonderful monohull. Why haven't you?

For our enlightenment, so we can avoid making the mistakes you have made, what type of boats have you had? Who's designs, what models?
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Old 02-03-2017, 18:11   #17
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Can we please talk about how they behave and how to best sail a cat in weather?
Based on the first 14 responses it seems not possible at all I'm afraid.

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And what are the characteristics that make one cat better at heavy weather sailing than others?
Number one would be bridgedeck clearance. The less a cat has, the worse it is in seaway due to heavy weather.
The next one would depend on if you actually meant what you said or not, I find it possible survivability to be more important for you than sailing in heavy stuff. In such case a cat capable of drifting slowly using parachute sea anchor might be better for you than a cat capable of still sailing with capable crew. And those cats do not necessarily have same characteristics at all. In both cases large size do help.
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Old 02-03-2017, 18:18   #18
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Lrfiori, that as you appear to have little multihull experience,...
Seems Lrfiori is not the only one...
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Old 02-03-2017, 19:08   #19
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

Llrfiori where is no ultimate receipe: it depends on your self and your crew, it depends on your catamaran.

Begin with the catamaran.
In my opinion a good compromise between sailing ability and comfort is best. As we know on catamarans you can choose for two of three qualitys: sailing abilities or comfort or price. I would choose sailing abilities and comfort and for the price I would choose a smaller cat. Sorry, I know that in this part of the world thingking is: bigger is better.

And now for heavy waether in the beginning of sailing with a catamaran the knowlegde that your boat can capsize is a burden for you. But more you have experience this burden will be lighter, And the behavior of the cat if you have enough (Sea) room you may sail downwind but not to fast, reef, reef in time may be you have at the end no mainsail up and only a tiny Tissue of the foresail. But it is important not to bee to fast and to have light bows so they cannot cut under.
See the accident in spring one or two years earlear of a Lagoon, sailing the Atlantic towards the Acores.
Otherwise I know of an accident in the Med in December some years ago when i a forecast storm a Catana capsized over the bows or sterns while trailing a drogue and an other Catana with experienced crew in the same Rallye was sailing fine.

May be you find it is better to sail to windward, again adequately reefed your cat will sail up huge mountains of waves in an angle of about 45 degrees (your GPS will tell you that you do a lot of leeway, but thats good as the eddies on the boats windside will flatten the sea a little.

And before you are totally exhausted and have still enough sea room ho have to heave too. When that happen you are happy when you know that your mast is not too high and you have choosen good sails (anyway a nececity for heavy weather sailing) at least three reefs for the main, I know people who like to have four reefs and you have not ordered that modern rectangular top. And when heaving too works fine you feel comfortable, I have read that at first in sailing books and would not belvieve, but thats the truth.

That is what I can tell you: no ultimate behavior many books have been written about heavy weather sailing.

Thats my opinion based on my experience other sailors have other opinions. The only thing I can say: after about 120k Miles I am still alive and I was so lucky to have not an (even little) accicent.

Courage and happy sailing.
James
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Old 02-03-2017, 19:58   #20
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

There's some great info in the above post. And would that I had time to pen something quite as insightful, & full of great tips. But... later perhaps. Until then below are links to some great self education resources on the subject(s). Including boat design, outfitting, handling/seamanship, et all. From some experts on these things who've been on the leading edge of yachting for decades.
Shuttleworth Design - Articles
SetSail FPB » Free Books
Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base | Using Parachutes, Sea Anchors and Drogues to Cope with Heavy Weather – Over 130 Documented Case Histories

There are several chapters on relavent stuff in each of the (free) Dashew books. Shuttleworth goes into the science of what does & doesn't make a multihull perform when the chips are down. And the DDB lets you read lots, & lots of case stories on what worked & what didn't for folks; on all different boat types, as well as experience levels, & equipment.

BTW, 20-40yrs ago, the multihull designers of the time came to the general concensus that an offshore multihull should at a minimum be around 40' long, with 100,000ft/lb of righting moment. And the latter's pretty easy to calculate, though obviously it's not a hard & fast rule. But having a boat well sorted out in terms of handholds, easy sail handling, drogue deployment, etc. is. Even when some of these qualities take away from the weekend condo feel or look. Or not, the choice (& life) is yours.
Ask these guys https://www.plisson.com/media/catalo...8.03.144_1.JPG

Oh, & weatherly foils rock. As quite a lot of minikeels either stall a lot, or allow a lot of leeway when the wind & seas are up. Even it it's not a storm. So check a boat's real VMG vs. it's ideal VMG in flat waters.

PS: Also think on where your inside steering station might be. Even if but a seat with good visibility, & an autopilot remote. Boat's get designed around such features for a reason. Look at any craft that earns it's keep as a work boat!
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Old 02-03-2017, 20:03   #21
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

I don't think anyone is hitting the actual question of how do they behave? Let's toss out capsize and discuss what it's like to be on a Cat in some nasty weather.

Even though they don't roll, I would suspect that when on the side of a large wave you would feel some lean and you'll find if you secured for sea? Confused waves would likely push these around like any others and make life uncomfortable. Even at 50ft, that's a boat not a ship. I would also guess that racing down a wave and meeting the next may going e a stop and go or pounding much like a mono.

I'd be very interested to hear from Cat sailors that have been in the nasty stuff.
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Old 02-03-2017, 20:24   #22
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

I love the look of the Chris White boats, an I would love to day sail one, but that beautiful cockpit with a door behind it is the antithesis of safety in a performance cat.

When the winds are strong or could be, you NEVER hide in the cabin. Any person who did that on a boat of mine would never again serve a turn on watch. The crew, even if alone, must be positioned to be able to steer AND adjust sheets. We listen to explanations of why it is OK and under what circumstances, avoiding the point that the design concept is quite simply wrong. Pretty, and efficient when crewed, but wrong for heavy weather passages. The temptation to hide is too great. Much better to design with a comfortable cockpit with good visibility and a hard top. If you aren't going to be in a position to tend sheets on a cat in a blow, then take the sails down.

My other pet peeve is the mantra of bearing off in gusts. Yes and no. There are exceptions to this rule both up wind and down wind, and you need to know the difference. If you want to learn the answer, sail a performance beach cat in too much wind for a few years. This will be unpopular, but IMHO, if you have not served a meaningful apprenticeship in beach cats you sail a cruising cat at your peril. If it is never strong, you'll be fine, but if it is, you won't know what to do or when to do it.
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Old 02-03-2017, 20:46   #23
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Please define heavy weather.....wind speed, wave height/period, and duration.

At 30-35kts wind gusting 40, triple reef both head and main, beam reach, fantastic ride. Could do this for days.

Once caught in 55kts, dropped sails and motored into it for the 4 hour duration.

When and where makes a lot of difference.
Not to step into this soon to be brawl, but this is a very valid point. I would suggest force 9, so storm force, open water, winds 50 to 55 knts sustained and gusting well into the high 60's waves 30-40' cresting and some tops breaking. 30-40 knts of wind is just starting to be a fun day
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Old 02-03-2017, 23:03   #24
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

Hello Lrfiori

I have only done sailing along coasts as you seem to want to do. For the some parts cats can be sailed differently from most monos when coasting.

We often tie to a tree or dry out in bad weather or in dubious anchorages. Shoal draft and high speed potential allows cats and tris to more easily cross river bars and find shelter in river heads and across barred entrances. Of course you must be sensible but I have sat out some nasty weather changes in shallow creeks. I have to take the bottom and tie to a tree so that I don't sit on the anchor but it can be very snug in a creek when your compatriots are weary eyed after a night shifting anchorages. Still you will have to plan your entry and escape (don't forget the mozzie nets too).

The ability to do up to 15 knots in perfect control is useful. Whereas many boats don't like surfing, it can be a reasonable technique to surf fast across river bars. I like a boat that is designed to do these speeds in control. I like to keep all the sail up I can when crossing bars to keep speed up. The last thing I want is to be slow when a wave rears up behind. Staying in front of the crest suits my boat and is safer than going slower most of the time.

I think that motoring potential is not important in offshore sailing. I do like having a staysail on an inner forestay. Otherwise you will find that the boat develops lee helm as you reef.

Also you will have to develop techniques that differ. Unlike a previous poster I shy away from beam reaches offshore in heavy winds. The sea and swell hit the slab sides of our cat (and she is rather low freeboard). We can get waves exploding off our lee bow. So we change course - a little above a reach and then a little below which reduces motion and loads dramatically. Listen to the boat and alter your course to reduce load and motion.

You should read some books like Chris White's "The cruising multihull" which go into parachutes and drogues. In our coastal sailing we have not needed a drogue but we carry and practice with it.

Like others I would look for cats with higher bridgedeck clearance. My cat has 860mm with a section down to 660. It doesn't slap much but can in big winds - 30-35 knots. Strangely enough, we get some slapping when going faster than the sea and when we ride over a crest.

Be very careful about opinions on the net about designs. For example the designer of my cat - Robin Chamberlin - has done a huge amount of miles. He sailed his own 38ft racing cat to Antarctica and went through huge winds on many voyages on some of the nastiest seas. Yet some would condemn all his designs because of some examples capsizing. My 11.6m Chamberlin cat has a squat 14m rig and yet goes windspeed with its reacher up (till 12 knots) and has never come close to lifting a hull in 17 years. Just as all cars can rollover, all cats can potentially capsize and most of the time it will be the drivers fault. Think car, not mono. Look at the rig height, displacement, beam and bridgedeck clearance to help denote a cruiser. Personally I like a lighter boat with a shorter mast, with a huge reacher for light winds only.

A monohull is less forgiving to navigational errors around sandbars and beaches. A cat may let you off easier with a push from the bow or winch to a kedge. A cat will be less forgiving if you leave too way much sail up in a big wind. It is a mistake to not understand the advantages and limitations of either type.

cheers

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Old 02-03-2017, 23:17   #25
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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To survive heavy weather you need , a strongly built (heavy),
Rubbish, heavy does NOT equal properly built
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. , stoutly rigged (with facility to hoist storm sails not simply roll up the existing headsail),
Correctly may or may not equal stoutly
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with inboard diesel motors (not unreliable outboards
Rubbish
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From recent flips of namely the Chris White and Robin Chamberlin style of performance cruiser we can see that these are completely unsuitable.
Perhaps you can explain why you know more than Robin and Chris
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Old 02-03-2017, 23:19   #26
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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May I add, Lrfiori, that as you appear to have little multihull experience, .
and you appear to have less, happy for you to correct me if I am wrong
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Old 03-03-2017, 02:33   #27
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

Gentle people...
Given the extracted data from the much maligned short poll conducted here on CF as to whether or not Cats are as a safe as monohulls... 30% of respondents did not believe so.

On that basis, and given their rationale, Cats will pitchpole and safely float in bad weather albeit upside down. But then it has hatches in the hulls to get fresh air in.

The reality is: the technology and design that goes into production cruising Cats is among the best engineering work in the world. NO DESIGNER wants a vessel that inverts or is not capable of fulfilling its brief. TO this end, you MUST find a vessel that has been designed for the conditions you will find yourself sailing in.

The same criteria is applied to purchasing a mono hull.

The internet can show you data and statistics. I will merely point you to experienced Catamaran owners on CF, both purchasers and builders, and request that they give you their observations etc.

For the record.. I am a monohull owner looking to transition to a multi.

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Old 03-03-2017, 02:37   #28
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Old 03-03-2017, 02:52   #29
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Please define heavy weather.....wind speed, wave height/period, and duration.

At 30-35kts wind gusting 40, triple reef both head and main, beam reach, fantastic ride. Could do this for days.

Once caught in 55kts, dropped sails and motored into it for the 4 hour duration.

When and where makes a lot of difference.
Yes, definitions would be good in order to have a productive conversation (as opposed to where this appears to be headed).

In addition to weather, the question was about cruising cats not performance cats like Chris White.

So OP...whats your definition of "heavy weather"?
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:25   #30
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Re: Catamarans in Heavy Weather

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Thanks for injecting a bit of reason into the thread. Also, your photo elevates the definition of "confused seas" to new heights. : )

And, by the way, where was your parachute anchor when you took the photo? : )

Oops .. don't want to start another, off topic, inherently subversive, anchoring thread : )

Best regards,

G2L
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