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Old 02-12-2019, 10:36   #121
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Originally Posted by boom23 View Post
Catamarans are very wide and it's very hard to make them solid (not flexible). I believe they all tend to creak, just like the average quality monohulls.

Riggers have told me that one cannot get the catamaran side stays as tight as the monohull, as the catamaran hull bends. If one keeps tightening the catamaran side stays, the interior doors will start hitting their frames and not close. That's when you know you tightened too much.

What you describe also takes place on monohulls: over tight sidestays will affect the bulkheads and over tight forestay/backstay can banana bend a boat.

For cats though, like most things, it depends. Wth the wide shroud angles there is usually no need for super tight rigging. And for an n=1 anecdote, our cat has glassed bulkheads and a load frame made up of the two main beams and the hulls. There is no creaking and no bending. But others do. Just like some monos will work in a seaway and others don’t.

Lagoon, FP and Leopard do not represent all catamarans. Just as Bene, Bav and Catalina don’t represent all monos.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:39   #122
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

I’ve Sailed offshore in many cats and monos. The biggest difference I’ve found is cats are very noisy (waves crashing into the bridge deck) and their motion is more violent, jerky.
And cats generally sail faster so less time at sea. And more or less zero heel.

If I could afford it I would go for a cat.

Cost wise. Marina charges double. Engine costs double.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:51   #123
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Originally Posted by boom23 View Post
Catamarans are very wide and it's very hard to make them solid (not flexible). I believe they all tend to creak, just like the average quality monohulls.

Riggers have told me that one cannot get the catamaran side stays as tight as the monohull, as the catamaran hull bends. If one keeps tightening the catamaran side stays, the interior doors will start hitting their frames and not close. That's when you know you tightened too much.
That's some cheaply built catamaran you're thinking of. Lol

To bend mine or have it creak, you'd have to snap the beam bulkheads (the ones that run transversely across the entire boat) or rip them out of the hulls they are glassed to.

They are shaped something like this:

O^^^O

The ENTIRE beam bulkhead is glassed to the hull around the complete "O" shape and glassed to the bridgedeck all along the "^^^" part. It's continuous glass all the way around the border of that shape. No gaps. No stops. Continuous glass to the hull on both faces of the beam bulkhead and all the way around it.

No way in the world that can bend or creak.

Nothing should be loose and creaking.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:59   #124
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
What you describe also takes place on monohulls: over tight sidestays will affect the bulkheads and over tight forestay/backstay can banana bend a boat.

For cats though, like most things, it depends. Wth the wide shroud angles there is usually no need for super tight rigging. And for an n=1 anecdote, our cat has glassed bulkheads and a load frame made up of the two main beams and the hulls. There is no creaking and no bending. But others do. Just like some monos will work in a seaway and others don’t.

Lagoon, FP and Leopard do not represent all catamarans. Just as Bene, Bav and Catalina don’t represent all monos.
I agree. I'm not against catamarans. I'm just saying that it's harder to make a catamaran stiff, beam-wise, as it's much wider.
Maybe the Antares 44 doesn't creak as much as furniture is glassed on the hull and it may be more stiff. But, I've never sailed on one.

When I sold my Lagoon 450, I searched for a modern better quality catamaran around the same length. But, I couldn't find one that I liked. The 50ft+ catamarans were too huge for a couple and had huge freeboard. As I've said before, there's a market for a quality catamaran in the 45ft range. The Antares is a good one but it needs to be modernized a little, for my taste. That's one of the reasons I opted for a good quality monohull and, frankly, I'm happy with my decision. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with an Amel.
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Old 02-12-2019, 13:26   #125
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by boom23 View Post
Catamarans are very wide and it's very hard to make them solid (not flexible). I believe they all tend to creak, just like the average quality monohulls.

Riggers have told me that one cannot get the catamaran side stays as tight as the monohull, as the catamaran hull bends. If one keeps tightening the catamaran side stays, the interior doors will start hitting their frames and not close. That's when you know you tightened too much.
They certainly don't all creak. Ours never has. I've sailed on several of Bob Oram's designed boats, none has creaked.
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Old 02-12-2019, 14:06   #126
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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All catamarans do not creak.

Did you mean "Not all catamarans creak"? That's an entirely different logical premise.
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Old 02-12-2019, 14:08   #127
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Did you mean "Not all catamarans creak"? That's an entirely different logical premise.


Yes, English is my first language but I suck at it[emoji16]
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:30   #128
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Hi Boom23, maybe abit of a thread drift but performance can be linked to safety and that's what I'd like to know about.

Few can compare a modern Cat and modern mono of compatible sizes the way you can ie you've owned and lived on both. Some have moved from old monos to newish cats etc but not many have done what you have.

How do they compare performance wise, I'm talking speed in a real cruising situations? now of course a Oram or Outreamer are very fast cruising cats but most I see out here are lagoons ,leopards etc and they are the boats I'm talking about. I've been cruising with a 46 leapord quite abit recently and it's been good to compare.

I've thought for a long time that I'd like a big cat when I grow up, but the more i cruise my biggish mono and the better I get at sailing it, I'm not sure anymore. Spending time on the leapord makes me realise they are a fantastic cruising platform but has also made me realise I'm not sure they are a improvement over what I have, fors and againsts? From a sailing perspective I'm yet to have one of these production cats out sail me ,in fact I tend to sail alot more but this is related more to the ease of an inmast furler than cat or mono performance.

Money wont allow it but I'm becoming a fan of the Amel 50, I look at them and have envy (in a good way) that's not happening when I look at the vanilla type cat, Amel has targeted me perfectly..lol.
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:32   #129
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Yes, English is my first language but I suck at it[emoji16]
Awesome, I'm not alone...lol. I have a young Belgium crew onboard, its quite embarrassing how often I ask her how to spell something in English [emoji1787]
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:36   #130
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Awesome, I'm not alone...lol. I have a young Belgium crew onboard, its quite embarrassing how often I ask her how to spell something in English [emoji1787]


Yeah, if it wasn’t for spell check I would look like a true idiot[emoji16]
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:12   #131
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Yeah, if it wasn’t for spell check I would look like a true idiot[emoji16]

I don’t know about that, but on my iPhone autocorrect keeps changing ‘jib’ to ‘job’ and ‘furler’ to ‘curler’. Requires careful review and/or editing posts to avoid looking sloppy.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:19   #132
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Hi Boom23, maybe abit of a thread drift but performance can be linked to safety and that's what I'd like to know about.

Few can compare a modern Cat and modern mono of compatible sizes the way you can ie you've owned and lived on both. Some have moved from old monos to newish cats etc but not many have done what you have.

How do they compare performance wise, I'm talking speed in a real cruising situations? now of course a Oram or Outreamer are very fast cruising cats but most I see out here are lagoons ,leopards etc and they are the boats I'm talking about. I've been cruising with a 46 leapord quite abit recently and it's been good to compare.

I've thought for a long time that I'd like a big cat when I grow up, but the more i cruise my biggish mono and the better I get at sailing it, I'm not sure anymore. Spending time on the leapord makes me realise they are a fantastic cruising platform but has also made me realise I'm not sure they are a improvement over what I have, fors and againsts? From a sailing perspective I'm yet to have one of these production cats out sail me ,in fact I tend to sail alot more but this is related more to the ease of an inmast furler than cat or mono performance.

Money wont allow it but I'm becoming a fan of the Amel 50, I look at them and have envy (in a good way) that's not happening when I look at the vanilla type cat, Amel has targeted me perfectly..lol.
It is really hard to find and compare a monohull and an equivalent (in quality, weight, interior/exterior volume, performance, etc.) catamaran...

I've sailed a (long term cruise loaded) Lagoon 450 in the S Pacific, and an equally loaded Amel 50 in the Med. These are hardly the same boats or same sailing conditions. Also, I was much less experienced sailor with the Lagoon.

The L450 pulled through some very rough conditions (40kts+ winds and equivalent waves). It was not fast (due to heavy loading) or comfortable (creaking and LOUD bridgedeck slapping/explosions) but, with the right sails it kept going and felt relatively safe, even though it sounded like it was going to fall apart.

I haven't had the chance to sail the Amel 50 in similar conditions. The Med is relatively calmer (strong winds, but shorter & steeper waves) and distances are much shorter.

Here's a summary of my observations.

Lagoon F450 Pros:
-Huge living space inside and out.
- Single level living space. People newer to sailing tend to love it.
- Lots of salon windows.
- No heeling. We could leave things on shelves. It felt safe.
- Great platform when anchored.
- Relatively easy to maneuver, except in stronger winds.
- Probably easier for people newer to sailing.

Lagoon Cons:
- Average quality. Built to reduce cost and production time.
- Maintenance is more difficult than on the Amel. Equipment are everywhere and usually less accessible.
- No real thought was put into anything, except probably the living space.
- Very high boom.
- Miserable (maddening for me) heavy weather sailing experience.
- Two engines to maintain.
- Saildrives.
- Performance suffers a lot when loaded for long term cruising.
- Harder to find Marina space.

Amel 50 pros:
- Quality in everything. Very refined feel.
- No creaking.
- Everything is designed to be accessible and functional for long term cruising.
- Many (6, I believe) watertight compartments.
- Real engine room.
- Easy to handle sails.
- I don't need to leave the deep & covered cockpit to do anything.
- Staysail.
- Better sailing feel/performance and much less noise. Smooth sailing motion.
- Surprisingly, easier to maneuver due to strong bow thruster.
- Shaft drive.
- One main engine to maintain.
- Easier to find Marina space.

Amel 50 Cons:
- Harder to see out of the cockpit glass at night, but has opening window/hatches.
- Heels.
- No second main engine, for redundancy.
- 4 steps to living area.
- Much higher purchase cost.

I may have forgotten few things...

All in all, they are very different boats. I feel that the Amel 50 will outperform and feel better than an equally loaded Lagoon 450. I haven't felt unsafe on the Amel 50 yet.

I'm certainly not going back...
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:02   #133
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Imagine if Amel would make a cruising Catamaran in the same serious style of their Monohulls...

In various threads members have in fact mentioned that it's difficult to find a production Cat at that type of level of quality.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:05   #134
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Yachtworld lists a 2018 Amel 50 for roughly the same price as a 2012 Outremer 5x. It would be absolutely great to experience being on the water with, for example, these two boats. Easier said than done.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:40   #135
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Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

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Imagine if Amel would make a cruising Catamaran in the same serious style of their Monohulls...

In various threads members have in fact mentioned that it's difficult to find a production Cat at that type of level of quality.
I agree.
There is a market for a modern quality built catamaran in the 45ft range.

I thought that the Benetau group would give it a shot with the new Excess product line, but it is just a racier (if that) Lagoon. Too bad...
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