Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2019, 05:28   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Newfoundland
Boat: Beneteau
Posts: 307
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

While I'll leave it up to individuals to decide on what they sail I don't see how people will talk about how open spaces on boats is dangerous because one can be thrown. This would fit into this category for me because if you think your boat doesn't move I would contend that neither does it move from the wharf. I've only been on one cat and that was on my mooring and despite the talk about them this 47 certainly did move. Yes it might be better but this statement certainly falls into the misleading.
__________________

nortonscove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 05:37   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,498
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
As someone with a lot of time on both types of vessel here are my thoughts.

In cabin: monohull have more hand holds below decks and fiddles on working countertops. Cats are missing both. Infuriating is that cats don’t even provide hardwood handholds for the stairs. Instead you must hold onto the ends of countertops.

Cockpit: the beam and design of cats makes even a safety conscious Delivery Capt like me ok with siting at the table in >12’ seas ok. Cats are light on “hard points” for jacklines. In a monohull I require crew to clip-in when they leave the cabin. Because the cockpit ona mono is smaller, stern cleats double as hard points. I like the helm on cats as I can add a hard point (dyneema loop) and know crew is safe helming or trimming or setting 1st reef.

On deck: going forward on a cat is safer in that you can stand while clipped and holding onto to coach roof. On a monohull a certain agility is required. BUT, on smaller cats you can go over the side on a 3’ tether. With a monohull I run the jack down the center and crew cannot fall off. HUGE cat disadvantage is going to mast. Setting the second and third reef requires going forward. Seas will be 10-12 or higher, and you will be 6-12’ above the water. “Things get sporty” so clipping in is mandatory. The issue is, once again, good hard points. Some cats have them, others do not.

In the end they are both tools for a job. And any tool is only as safe as the user.

Unless, of course, you don't have the cat you're describing here.
__________________

Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 06:06   #48
Marine Service Provider
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Tartan 33 and OPB
Posts: 2,664
Send a message via Skype™ to Snore
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Unless, of course, you don't have the cat you're describing here.

There are many, many different cats and monohulls out there. FPS and Lagoons both require you to go forward for reefs 2&3. The ONE cat I did not have to go forward had in in-boom furling. I am sure there may be others, but knowing my perspective a buyer can look for those issues in other brands or the OP can look at other brands to see how they address those issues.

I will be sure to go back to being corporate and use mushy phrases like “on the cats I have used” and “on the monohulls....”.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael -a link to my delivery website is in my profile—
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 06:15   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Currently Run Aground Ashore...
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 926
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
If you are saying when standing at the mast of a cat the lifelines are at thigh height I defy you to show me a Lagoon, Neel, FP or many others that meet this claim. Lagoons I have sailed the life lines are below the level of my feet at the mast.
Agreed, most modern bridgedeck cats are like this. Although some have the mast stepped in front of the bridgedeck cabin top, at 'deck level'. Maybe this is what @44'cruisingcat was describing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Wharrams.. Yes, the mast is on the beam at deck level. On deck level they are pretty much equal.
As you already know, some perceived Wharram minuses magically transform into built in safety features at other times.

jmh2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 06:17   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Currently Run Aground Ashore...
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 926
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
In the end they are both tools for a job. And any tool is only as safe as the user.
Sage advice and reasoning
jmh2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 06:40   #51
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 26,433
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by mglonnro View Post
Adding to the direct effects of heeling, I was actually thinking a lot about moving around inside the boat. With a decent amount of heel, it's not that easy. Doing this and that task (preparing food for example), it might get even more difficult.

Then there are the indirect effects. Many people write that having to operate in a constantly tilted environment requires more energy and induces fatigue. I assume that there is a clear and positive correlation between fatigue and risk of accidents, and that would be the indirect effect.

Rolling does not normally take place when the boat is on a heel. You normally get rolling when sailing deep enough that the boat on the contrary is not heeling.


But yes -- all the remarks about fatigue induced by moving around the boat and doing work while the boat is heeled are correct. And for sure it increases the risk of accident, just like anything which induces fatigue. Anyone who has done much passagemaking on a mono knows all this.


There can be no question that absence of heel is a major advantage of multihulls for passagemaking. That was the OP's question and his ideas are certainly correct.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-être pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 09:03   #52
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 28,787
Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

They may not heel but they often roll on a beam reach, I’ve watched it.
What happens is of course a wave rolls under one hull first and this of course raises that hull. Then that hull descends as the wave rolls under it, the wave of course does the same on the opposite hull a few seconds later and induces a rolling moment.
A mono of course is subject to the same forces and does rise and descend with the wave, but it doesn’t roll.

Now really big rollers I’d assume are large enough to span the beam on a Cat and they don’t roll much on a large wave, I’d assume, but as I don’t often encounter those huge rollers that I think are common in the Pacific I can’t say.

People will argue this of course, but I’ve sailed beside them and watched it.

Then many monos don’t heel much, many do of course. I believe the older narrower and of course more tender boats do. My boat the limit on heel is about 15 degree, she will heel further of course, but your VMG isn’t any better, so why?
Now that may be because she is not a racing design and just incapable of faster speeds for all I know, but 15 degrees is pushing it and we rarely are heeled over that much.
I’ve posted this photo before, we are on a beam reach pretty much and close to hull speed with a lot of sail up. But see how much heel there is.
There is a lot of difference between one boat and another. Now I don’t try to pretend that I don’t give up something by not heeling a lot, my assumption is I give up performance, but just for the record these photos were taken from what appeared to be a decent performing boat, that we sailed by, because they didn’t have a Code Zero I’m sure.
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0746.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	31.0 KB
ID:	203890

Now what is in my mind important safety wise is that there should be nowhere in any type of boat that you can stand and not have easy access to at least one handhold, it doesn’t have it be a designed hand hold, a door jam etc can suffice, there also shouldn’t be anything that you can fall against and hurt yourself, no square countertop corners etc.
However I see in many newer boats a lack of handholds, a lot of open space and sharp corners, regardless of the number of hulls.
It seems that open spaces and a more house like look sells.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 09:17   #53
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 66
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

I've never seen a boom gallows on a catamaran so there must be a difference in boom swinging when sailing downwind under foresail alone :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtstricky View Post
Wider beam and less heeling would probably lead to less injuries. I doubt it is a significant difference. Getting on and off, boom movement, wet slippery decks are the same everywhere.
OneHullPaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 10:05   #54
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 333
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
Tupaia: which size cat?
I have sailed cats between 24 and 57 ft. My own cat is 44 ft
Tupaia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 10:23   #55
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 333
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneHullPaul View Post
I've never seen a boom gallows on a catamaran so there must be a difference in boom swinging when sailing downwind under foresail alone :
Firstly, there is much less rolling when sailing DDW on a cat so it is less of an issue than on a mono, being more annoying than dangerous.

I have a fixed length tether, similar to a safety line but a bit longer that I clip on the end of the boom (that I can reach from the cockpit) and clip to a u-bolt at the end of the traveller. By setting the mainsheet on the opposite side the boom is triangulated and cannot move. This is standard configuration whenever the main is down even at anchor.

I also have some out-board u-bolts that I use in a similar fashion, but with a quick release billy, to act as a preventer when running downwind with main up.

Some cats, certainly older Catana's, have double mainsheets that negates the problem.

On boats where the mainsheet is attached to the bimini frame the mainsheet is so short that it cannot be braced and an element of swinging about will occur.

On boats with fly-bridge and elevated boom I have yet to find a way of bracing the boom. Boom brake maybe? I don't know.
Tupaia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 10:33   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: UK
Boat: SeaDog 30
Posts: 32
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by mglonnro View Post
Yes, absolutely! We'll have to get some multihull sailing time to actually figure out what we think about it.

I'm curious about the more scientific aspect of this, though, as well. In addition to all the very subjective opinions, how would one go about to figure out "the truth" about "it"? And what is the "it"?

My (slightly less) broad assumptions, that I would like to test:

1) Crew fatigue is related to crew safety -> more fatigue, more risk of accidents/injury. (I assume this has been researched already.)

2) In environment conditions [a, b, c, ...], the dynamics of [production catamaran model X] compared to [production monohull model Y] will induce significantly [more/less] fatigue to the crew.

So how would you go about finding out the truth? I mean if I want something more than my own subjective opinion?
Not sure what you are looking for as "scientific aspect". It looks like common sense to me.

Regarding 1)
Fatigue clearly reduces reaction time, coordination, muscle strength and clarity of thinking. These all increase risk of accident/injury. You do not need a scientific study for that.
There are no aspect of fatigue that reduces the risk of accident/injury, other than going to bed. But that may not be an option at sea.

Regarding 2)
As it was stated that different motions impact different people differently. Even if there would be a study that says "1/3 of the observed population was less fatigued on monos and 2/3 was less fatigued on multis", there is not much you can do with it. You do not know where you and your family belongs until you try it.

When I faced this dilemma I signed up for an ocean crossing on a multi. That has decided it for me (multi for trade winds, mono around Britain).
OldKetch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 11:01   #57
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 333
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmGroot View Post
Monohull sailor here...but looking for a cat to liveaboard and eventually circumnavigate (after a few charters, admiral strongly prefers a cat).

One thing that has passed through my mind walking around the cats has been a general lack of handholds, and/or the wide-open spaces with nothing sturdy to grab onto. When you do have one of those unpredictable motions I would think there is a lot more distance to build up momentum to fall...even over the side if topsides. Also, with the distance from the side decks to the mast and hull to hull distance it must be difficult to keep a short tether unless you have a literal web of jacklines rigged. What is the real-world experience of the distance cruisers out there?
I have an "H" configuration of jack lines. Aft lifting eyes to main beam lifting eyes, these are inboard of the side decks. Then from the main beam lifting eyes to the forward beam halfway between the seagull striker and the bow on each side. A fifth line goes forward of the deck house between the main beam lifting eyes. There is also a safety line rigged from the diamond chain plate that meets the mast at about chest height when standing on the mast step.

I should add that I have no winches on the mast and all sail handling including reefing is done from the cockpit. The jack-lines are only used to deploy or strike the screecher or if something goes wrong.

IMO any boat crewed by a couple should be configured so that it can be safely single handed, including being reefed by either person, this being the norm on passage when one or the other may be asleep.
Tupaia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 12:34   #58
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 604
Images: 1
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldKetch View Post
Not sure what you are looking for as "scientific aspect". It looks like common sense to me.

snip

Regarding 2)
As it was stated that different motions impact different people differently. Even if there would be a study that says "1/3 of the observed population was less fatigued on monos and 2/3 was less fatigued on multis", there is not much you can do with it. You do not know where you and your family belongs until you try it.
Let me explain myself! The "scientific aspect" because I'm actually more interested in general information than what it would be for myself.

If the end result, as in your example, would show significantly less fatigue for multihull crews, it would obviously become a standard selling and purchasing argument for everyone operating in the market.

The "scientific aspect" also because, in the end, I'm more interested in "the truth" than proving my own intuitive assumptions true.

Even without the monohull type heeling, the dynamics of multihull movement (for a specific multihull, with specific weather conditions) might obviously be worse (and more fatigue inducing) than on a monohull. Don't know. It would be interesting to come up with a method to test this.
__________________
nakedsailor.blog / @the_nakedsailor
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 12:36   #59
Registered User
 
mglonnro's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Turku, Finland
Boat: Hanse 388
Posts: 604
Images: 1
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Sage advice and reasoning
The user being constant, some tools are still more dangerous than others
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	3D41609100000578-0-image-a-17_1487185290892.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	122.9 KB
ID:	203899  
__________________
nakedsailor.blog / @the_nakedsailor
mglonnro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2019, 13:38   #60
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,205
Images: 69
Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
As someone with a lot of time on both types of vessel here are my thoughts.

In cabin: monohull have more hand holds below decks and fiddles on working countertops. Cats are missing both. Infuriating is that cats don’t even provide hardwood handholds for the stairs. Instead you must hold onto the ends of countertops.

Cockpit: the beam and design of cats makes even a safety conscious Delivery Capt like me ok with siting at the table in >12’ seas ok. Cats are light on “hard points” for jacklines. In a monohull I require crew to clip-in when they leave the cabin. Because the cockpit ona mono is smaller, stern cleats double as hard points. I like the helm on cats as I can add a hard point (dyneema loop) and know crew is safe helming or trimming or setting 1st reef.

On deck: going forward on a cat is safer in that you can stand while clipped and holding onto to coach roof. On a monohull a certain agility is required. BUT, on smaller cats you can go over the side on a 3’ tether. With a monohull I run the jack down the center and crew cannot fall off. HUGE cat disadvantage is going to mast. Setting the second and third reef requires going forward. Seas will be 10-12 or higher, and you will be 6-12’ above the water. “Things get sporty” so clipping in is mandatory. The issue is, once again, good hard points. Some cats have them, others do not.

In the end they are both tools for a job. And any tool is only as safe as the user.
Most of the cat's I've been aboard have handrails on the stairs. We've never missed having fiddles, stuff rarely moves.

I've always thought it strange that some builders provide cockpit reefing for first, when conditions will be mild, and not for second or third, when conditions will be more lively. Strange thinking, IMO.

I can't see how you think going to the mast is worse on a cat. There's generally less heel and far less rolling. We can run jacklines from cockpit to mast so that with a short tether you simply couldn't go overboard if you tried.
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
catamaran, crew, hull, monohull, safety

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice on Monohull vs Catamaran Bareboat Charter in Belize mfinley919 Atlantic & the Caribbean 42 02-12-2019 16:30
Sailing a Monohull thinking of going to a catamaran Normanj27 Meets & Greets 6 22-09-2008 12:42
Monohull vs. Catamaran Liveaboard Wailin Liveaboard's Forum 9 26-04-2008 22:12

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.