Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

And Fxykty, do you have Code 0 (the upwind kind) or something else for helping you upwind at low wind speeds?

Tacking upwind with a big head sail is not really practicable. it is necessary to furl it to go about. In fact we only have one sheet on our screecher.

Perhaps you should have a look at this parallel discussion.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-227264.html

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Are the new owners happy? Very likely, they are getting what they want:

• Huge salon
• Lots of appliances
• Comfort at anchor
• Adequate performance off the wind
• Big engines upwind

I once asked the designer of the "improved" Gemini about some of the changes that hurt sailing ability. He said "we build these to a different kind of sailor." I think that sums it up.



You simply can't have it all. If you make the boat longer and increase the power, you get a boat a only an experienced, motivated multihull sailors can safely handle in a breeze, and it will take two on watch. Otherwise, capsize is possible. Or you can reef early, but again, it requires an experienced hand. So most builders opt for slow and tame. It's just the market at work. Loose a few heavy amenities, focus on performance, and you can have a very nice sailing boat, as several posters here have.

The discussion will continue for quite some time, but I believe this pretty much sums it up, and not just for Cats either, but what people think they want in a boat is what your seeing in newer boats.

Perhaps there are more people buying the big expensive boats now that have little experience? Or perhaps they are buying boats now based on how impressive they will be to their friends that aren’t sailors?

Whatever the reason, boats both mono and multi are they way they are, because that’s wha the customers want.
Multi’s are far more popular and the in thing now, so I believe they are more affected.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Tacking upwind with a big head sail is not really practicable. it is necessary to furl it to go about. In fact we only have one sheet on our screecher.

Perhaps you should have a look at this parallel discussion.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-227264.html

I'm following that thread too. Outremer and Catana were just about the only major manufacturers that offered the same boat with either a genoa or self tacking jib so I was wondering about getting a little more speed to weather in light airs if one had the jib. I had already read that great analysis of the differences in Code 0 sails posted there by Quantum. It seems like with the right sail and furler tacking might not be too bad especially if you don't have to do it repeatedly like in tight quarters.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I'm following that thread too. Outremer and Catana were just about the only major manufacturers that offered the same boat with either a genoa or self tacking jib so I was wondering about getting a little more speed to weather in light airs if one had the jib. I had already read that great analysis of the differences in Code 0 sails posted there by Quantum. It seems like with the right sail and furler tacking might not be too bad especially if you don't have to do it repeatedly like in tight quarters.

A self tacking blade jib is certainly very efficient upwind because of its very close sheeting angle and open slot. It also makes tacking easy but, for cruising where you don't want to be changing sails a self tacking jib is usually too small for effective reaching and sits in the shadow of the main when off the wind.

A furler with 110-120 degree overlapping jib offers the best compromise for a cruiser, sufficiently small to allow continued use in higher apparent winds and enable close sheeting angles for windward work but still useful off the wind.

Unlike monohulls cats are mainsail driven, a furling jib acting more as a throttle control rather than to generate power.

[sailjumanji]

Seawind 1160 has a self tacking jib. Also an option for tracks to run a genoa, or use for the screacher. Seawind 1260 probably does as well.

[Dave_S]

It is very surprising to find how little time/distance you lose in a tack. It seems like you are just burning up both while you wait for the boat to come around and get back up to speed but it's no where near as bad as it feels.

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

A self tacking blade jib is certainly very efficient upwind because of its very close sheeting angle and open slot. It also makes tacking easy but, for cruising where you don't want to be changing sails a self tacking jib is usually too small for effective reaching and sits in the shadow of the main when off the wind.

A furler with 110-120 degree overlapping jib offers the best compromise for a cruiser, sufficiently small to allow continued use in higher apparent winds and enable close sheeting angles for windward work but still useful off the wind.

Unlike monohulls cats are mainsail driven, a furling jib acting more as a throttle control rather than to generate power.

I love my Outremer ,it has a self tacking job which is easy to handle etc . But the way it is installed from the factory it doesn’t work at all , in fact I installed control lines to make it at least passable. This is not about me not doing it right its about crap geometry. I have seen other Danson 45s with the same customization

[Sand crab]

Why doesn't your self tacking jib work satisfactorily? And is that the older O45?

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Why doesn't your self tacking jib work satisfactorily? And is that the older O45?

Yes it is an older Outremer.
Here are the reasons why it does not work
1 the track is straight, which means that if you bring in the sheet the clue wants to move to weather .
2 the track is mounted on the front beam which has a pronounced vertical curve. This means that when you sheet in the clue wants to move to weather.
3 the track is mounted flat on the beam as opposed to perpendicular to the forestay which means the car does not move easily.
I have installed control lines on the car which lead back to the cockpit, these allow me to control the location of the car . This works quite well but off the wind it is not great.
It is still easier than a traditional jib setup.
I think club footed would be better.
The only self tacker I have seen that comes close to working is on the PDQ44 which provided a constant radius track and my brother who developed it said it still was not perfect .
We come from a racing background which I know colours our out look

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Yes it is an older Outremer.
Here are the reasons why it does not work
1 the track is straight, which means that if you bring in the sheet the clue wants to move to weather .
2 the track is mounted on the front beam which has a pronounced vertical curve. This means that when you sheet in the clue wants to move to weather.
3 the track is mounted flat on the beam as opposed to perpendicular to the forestay which means the car does not move easily.
I have installed control lines on the car which lead back to the cockpit, these allow me to control the location of the car . This works quite well but off the wind it is not great.
It is still easier than a traditional jib setup.
I think club footed would be better.
The only self tacker I have seen that comes close to working is on the PDQ44 which provided a constant radius track and my brother who developed it said it still was not perfect .
We come from a racing background which I know colours our out look

"It is still easier than a traditional jib setup".

Being easier when it is already easy is not a good reason (it's actually easier to sit at home and not even go sailing).

Since a self-tacking hardware is installed it implies a jib, rather small.

In that case normal, two sheet, jib set up might be preferable. With a small jib handling the sheets in a tack is SO easy, why bother with a recalcitrant self-tacking arrangement?

Install two jib blocks and resort to a traditional set-up.

[Sand crab]

Thanks guys.
AS, I see a straight track on the new ones too. I wonder if they have the same issues.
WS, There are curved tracks on many other boats. I think all the high performance cats have self tacking jibs. It seems like if properly done then it is advantageous. The older Lagoon 42 TPI had a raised but curved track. The track was mounted on the side of the raised part rather than on top. A unique solution perhaps?

[fxykty]

Hmmm, we have a first generation 55, also with the straight track self-tacking jib. It mostly works just great. Regarding the problems listed above our traveller car doesn’t move inwards on its own when sheeting in; I wonder if the geometry is slightly different on the bigger boat?

To windward we have to ease the sheet during tacks to free the traveller and have it pass through the centreline. Delaying the eased sheet creates a small backwind and makes tacks easier. It also leads to a more powerful shape to accelerate into the new tack.

Off the wind the traveller moves to leeward nicely, but if we’re running deeper we’ll add a barber hauler to hold the clew out as the traveller tends to slide back towards the centre.

Regarding setting up dual sheets, it’s possible by adding just one additional turning block and jammer on the other side. But at least on our boat it would be a complication of a system that works just fine and allows you to concentrate on handling the main and running backstays during tacks and gybes.

[admiralslater]

Wing sail , easier said than done . The “small jib” is about 300 square feet and was cut to be sheeted in as original installed and would need to be replaced .Also there are no fairleads to lead the sheet to the nonexistent tracks or to the nonexistent winches. The placement of this equipment is on the cabin top so adapting to a new winch location is not possible without a very large outlay of cash .
I can a decent shape out of my present set up.

[gsuescum]

It depends soooo much on the make of catamaran. It seems like the production cats of today (I.E. Lagoon, Leopards, etc.) are heavily design-driven by the charter market. That is fine for charterers who are moving a few miles per day. I believe if you want to get some performance you have to stay away from most of the production cats OR look at their earlier models which catered a bit more to sailors.

I’ve chartered the Moorings/Leopards and a Lagoon 450; all great fun on beam reaches and comfortable.

My wife and I have owned a Privilege 615, a Mainecat 33 and now a Privilege 495 (our go-away boat!) and they all perform well. They’ve all done much better than the production cats we’ve “raced against” both upwind and with less leeway.

On those older Privileges we can easily get up 30 apparent wind and still be doing 1/3-1/2 the apparent wind speed. Here a pic from our shakedown of Hopes & Dreams, our P495. We were doing 1/2 apparent wind speed at ~40 deg (7.5kts in about 11 kts true)

Take a look at the older makes of catamarans or non-charter-centric makes and I’m sure you can find good performance.

[admiralslater]

Fxykty a 55L is my dream boat,lucky you. Perhaps the geometry on your boat is a bit different ,but you do describe the clue wanting to go to centre in your note . My car works fine as it is quite robust but the angle is wrong .I moved my main halyard to the mast which freed up a clutch that allowed me to set up the control lines . I use these to back the jib while tacking because as well as the boats track they are not particularly nimble through stays . As I said earlier I come from a racing background so it influences my thoughts on some of these things .
I was disappointed to see that new model 45 still use a straight track