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Old 16-08-2019, 13:24   #31
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

StevenSuf- Those numbers are a bit worse than my experience, but depending on current and sea state it is certainly a possibility. I have a 1998 Lagoon 470 so lighter than the more recent versions of cruising cats, but with lots of windage. I normally aim for around 38 AWA. Don't remember what TWA is but in minimal current and moderate sea state it results in around 105 to 110 tacking angle, including leeway. Boat has the mini keels so there is a lot of that. Also not unusual to end up closer to 120 degrees. Newer boats seem to be quite a bit heavier which would tend to hurt performance. One thing that is not talked about much is that older heavy displacement monohull cruisers don't do much better, if at all. Newer lighter monohulls do have better numbers.


There is also a wide variety of sailing skills out there and that can make a tremendous difference, especially going to windward.


Tired dacron sails also hurt the numbers.


Flying Scot - The feathering props will make a huge difference. Don't know the 440 specifically but I'll bet you get at least 1/2 knot, and more likely close to a full knot of speed.
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Old 16-08-2019, 13:31   #32
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontide View Post

There is also a wide variety of sailing skills out there and that can make a tremendous difference, especially going to windward.


Tired dacron sails also hurt the numbers.


Flying Scot - The feathering props will make a huge difference. Don't know the 440 specifically but I'll bet you get at least 1/2 knot, and more likely close to a full knot of speed.
Just to be clear, I have a 2008 Leopard 40.
Flexofold will be 2 blade folding. I can't wait to test them. Having wrapped fishing line around my standard 2 blades, even though the engines were off, was a motivator as well. I went with the composite version.

I'm sure my skill will also improve over time.

I have 'tired' dacron sails and look forward to upgrading, but I'm not sure what I want yet.
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Old 16-08-2019, 13:35   #33
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Just to be clear, I have a 2008 Leopard 40.
Flexofold will be 2 blade folding. I can't wait to test them.

I'll bet you still get that 1/2 to 1 knot improvement. If you sail instead of power in light air the % difference will be giant.
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Old 16-08-2019, 13:44   #34
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I can only speak for the Lagoon 400S2 sport bridge.
It depends on the wind speed, and the swell.

You can point high in strong winds, op to 35 degrees AWA with genua and main, sometimes even higher, but it has no meaning for the COG, you only slow down and drift aside. Best compromiseseems to be around 47 degrees AWA, without loosing speed, you COG is then around 65...70 degrees from true wind, so your COG tack angle is realistically 130..140 degree. You can try to get higher, but then you slow down a lot. A typical tacking pattern upwind, see belowClick image for larger version

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She tacks quite easyly using the windvane mode of the autopilot and handling the lines singlehanded, main sail is adjusted to the recommendations of the manufacturer, car 30cm to winward, boom centered.
Liveaboard configuration, fully equipped, 600l water, 400l fuel, A/C, generator, lots of tools, parts, toys and food on board, folding props, 47 degrees AWA upwind with windvane mode raymarine autopilot.
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Old 16-08-2019, 13:47   #35
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
Just to be clear, I have a 2008 Leopard 40.
Flexofold will be 2 blade folding. I can't wait to test them. Having wrapped fishing line around my standard 2 blades, even though the engines were off, was a motivator as well. I went with the composite version.

I'm sure my skill will also improve over time.

I have 'tired' dacron sails and look forward to upgrading, but I'm not sure what I want yet.
After killing Maxiprop I went for Kiwiprop. Plastic. Performance under motor is less than some of the high price bronce and stainless props, BUT in case of damage it is quite easy to repair them, you might change a single blade. Performance under sail is practically same

Sails, I selected HydraNet from Dimension Polyant, a Dacron/Ultra-PE-Hybrid, still woven but much more durable than Dacron alone, my last Cat had pure Dacron, after the Red Sea the sails were only good for downwind... Cats do not lean over and depower, more wind = more pressure = more speed = more load on your sails

I think the higher price is worth it if you want to keep your sails longer
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Old 16-08-2019, 14:12   #36
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

A key factor often omitted from these discussions is tacking angles vs sailing angles. Most cats require a bit wider tacking angle, but once you rebuild boat speed you can bring most up to a tighter sailing angle.
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Old 16-08-2019, 14:16   #37
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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A key factor often omitted from these discussions is tacking angles vs sailing angles. Most cats require a bit wider tacking angle, but once you rebuild boat speed you can bring most up to a tighter sailing angle.
This is exactly how it works, the picture above shows the truth, it is the track on the chart you end up, so COG after tacking. It includes the drift to leeward and the effects of the currents. Condomaran, mini keels, no daggerbords, heavy loaded.
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Old 16-08-2019, 14:35   #38
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Originally Posted by Moontide View Post
I'll bet you still get that 1/2 to 1 knot improvement. If you sail instead of power in light air the % difference will be giant.
I hope so. It may cost twice as much, but having two should make twice the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blubaju View Post
After killing Maxiprop I went for Kiwiprop. Plastic. Performance under motor is less than some of the high price bronce and stainless props, BUT in case of damage it is quite easy to repair them, you might change a single blade. Performance under sail is practically same

Sails, I selected HydraNet from Dimension Polyant, a Dacron/Ultra-PE-Hybrid, still woven but much more durable than Dacron alone, my last Cat had pure Dacron, after the Red Sea the sails were only good for downwind... Cats do not lean over and depower, more wind = more pressure = more speed = more load on your sails

I think the higher price is worth it if you want to keep your sails longer

Flexofold just does the hub as a composite. The blades are still traditional.
Drops 2.2kg per and supposedly less chance for electrolysis.

https://flexofold.com/folding-propel...ing-propeller/

I'll look into the sail cloth you mention. Thanks,
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Old 18-08-2019, 14:45   #39
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

have sailed both .... life is made of compromises.. some cats are built for accommodations and some are built for speed. One of many examples out there is the Maine Cat 40. Dagger boards , thinner hulls , simple accommodations making it light which all translates into speed and upwind performance.
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Old 18-08-2019, 18:10   #40
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Catanas are heavy and yet they tack pretty well.


Catalacs are heavy and do not.


etc.


Some are good, some bad, just like monos.


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Old 19-08-2019, 10:20   #41
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

An interesting point when discussing these numbers is that a Wharram Tiki 38 catamaran (and I imagine it's big brother the Tiki 48 too), which is a design that is not known as being an upwind performance machine (!) reportedly tacks through 100-120 deg as well, sea state dependant.

So not really worse than most of the cruising catamarans mentioned here, in fact mostly in the same range.

They have a deep V hull shape, no centerboards, and tiny LAR mini keels (skegs really, in comparison to the mini keels on other boats discussed here).

But they are a light, easily driven, and low windage design, which all helps compared to a full condomaran.

Link and photo for those unfamiliar with the design:
https://www.wharram.com/site/shop/st...designs/tiki38



Let's also not forget that although monohulls are often theoretically capable of much better upwind numbers, many of the more average, fat, little monohulls, loaded for cruising, suffer from the same disappointing tacking angles too.

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Old 23-08-2019, 07:02   #42
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Cats with keels DO NOT point as well as those with daggerboards. That's a fact

What makes cats performance desirability is their speed. For instance, you want to go from place A to place B that us upwind. Do you want to point higher or get there faster? Cats will get you there faster. It's called CMG. Course Made Good. If I have to travel say 1 mile farther because I can't point as high but can cover that added distance by going faster then my CMG is better.

An accurate set of Polar Charts will help you figure it out more precisely. Race boats sail to the best CMG all the time. Modern electronics can tell you what's your best CMG.

Personally I prefer to sail a bit more off the wind and go faster, have a smoother ride and arrive sooner. This is why I've been sailing mostly Multihulls the past 5 years.
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Old 23-08-2019, 08:28   #43
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

If the waves are flat or rather on the side, we can sail AWA 30, with 12 Kts wind about 6 kts fast. -As soon as we increase the angle we will of course sail faster. With the wave from the front, the smallest possible angle will soon be AWA 40 and above at a reasonably acceptable speed depending on the height of the wave. With 25knt wind and 2.5 meter short wave from the front it is difficult to achieve a usable VMG, as well as with very light wind (under 4 kts).
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Old 23-08-2019, 08:39   #44
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Quote:
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Cats with keels DO NOT point as well as those with daggerboards. That's a fact



What makes cats performance desirability is their speed. For instance, you want to go from place A to place B that us upwind. Do you want to point higher or get there faster? Cats will get you there faster. It's called CMG. Course Made Good. If I have to travel say 1 mile farther because I can't point as high but can cover that added distance by going faster then my CMG is better.



An accurate set of Polar Charts will help you figure it out more precisely. Race boats sail to the best CMG all the time. Modern electronics can tell you what's your best CMG.



Personally I prefer to sail a bit more off the wind and go faster, have a smoother ride and arrive sooner. This is why I've been sailing mostly Multihulls the past 5 years.


Ummm...I think you are referring to VMG, velocity made good, not CMG.
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Old 23-08-2019, 08:48   #45
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

We have a 2014 a Lagoon 450F. In addition to what others have said, keep in mind that cats are highly sensitive to weight and where the weight is loaded. For example, we have 810 liters of water and 1000 liters of fuel. We also have coppercoat bottom paint, folding props, and a leisure furl boom with new sail. Our speed and performance is noticeably different when fuel and water is full. We have lots of tools and spares, but don’t keep a bunch of crap aboard. The lithium batteries also help, 2x the power for half the weight. The new mainsail by Mack Sails with deep roach really helps. Yes, 45 degrees Sea is about right. Down to as low as 20 degrees motor sailing. CMG may be better falling off a bit more.
I lived on a Corbin 39 for 5 years and did 15,000 miles on that boat. Living on this lagoon is a whole new ballgame. If you can afford it, a cat is far superior in many regards imho, that make possibly a 5-10 degree difference in upwind performance one compromise that I’m more than happy to deal with.
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