Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[smj]

Originally Posted by Belezar

Way late to this, and I’m a mono guy, but have chartered cats a few times. I absolutely hate sailing them. They’re such pigs! It’s tough to get even 90 degrees. I’ve wondered what daggerboards and good sails would be like. Awesome family platforms, but not for me even with better sailing.

That’s like me saying I chartered an OI 41 a few times so all monohull are pigs.
Maybe charter a more performance oriented cat before making a ridiculous blanket statement?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

OK replace "possible" with "any benefit". There is no benefit to gybing a condomaran downwind it takes longer to get where you want to go. A boat needs to generate sufficient additional speed to cover the additional distance and is a tactic for light winds. The stronger the wind the less advantage. The relative wind / boat speed differential for a light cat (or racing mono) is much larger than a heavier slower boat.

eg. There is no benefit to gybing downwind on a Thames barge that needs 15-20 knots of wind to make any speed at all. There is no point in gybing downwind in 50 knots of wind.



Agree to a certain extent but reefing is not the issue. For multi's with boards up, your analysis is fine as the CE always remains in front of CLR, that is now back near the rudders. On a cat with keels and a big main the CE will be very close to CLR and steering will become much less stable.

"There is no benefit to gybing a condomaran downwind it takes longer to get where you want to go. A boat needs to generate sufficient additional speed to cover the additional distance and is a tactic for light winds"

This is a circular argument. The point made previously is that the headsail was blanketed by the main. Reaching up slightly and jibing downwind allows clear air to reach the headsail. The increased distance sailed is negligible if the jibing angles are moderate. And certainly keeping the headsail filled would give any boat an increase in speed, even a condomaran. Further, on a cat you can tack the light downwind sail to the windward hull, which is about the same as putting a pole on it, would be very effective. Except in light air you jibe downwind to keep the sails filled, not to go faster in a breeze.

However all of these techniques require a bit of work. So I think most people are sitting on the settee checking their cell phone coverage so they can see if they can get back on facebook. On an ocean crossing I have no idea what they do, but if they determine that sailing with the mainsail down is better, than it sure is not actively sailing the boat.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Belezar

Way late to this, and I’m a mono guy, but have chartered cats a few times. I absolutely hate sailing them. They’re such pigs! It’s tough to get even 90 degrees. I’ve wondered what daggerboards and good sails would be like. Awesome family platforms, but not for me even with better sailing.

To some extent cats are easier to sail than mono's because they are more stable, they steer more like a car rather than a motor bike and move along regardless of how badly the sails are adjusted.

It is much harder to sail a cat well. Unless it is a very small cat 20-30ft max there is very little feedback. Larger cats need to be sailed on the numbers. A tiny adjustment of the traveler or the outhaul can result in a huge difference in speed. The heavier the cat the more time it takes for adjustments to take effect and in my experience a common mistake ex-mono sailors make is to not wait long enough to assess the change or make too many changes at once and then overcompensate. Sheets and outhaul are too tight and there is a temptation to point too high, without due regard to VMG. They get off disappointed.

An good trick when sailing a new cat or a different cat for the first time is to set a waypoint a long way away (500Nm) directly to windward. Now try to sail to windward, note the VMG, now make distinct adjustments and you will gradually hone in on the best settings to achieve maximum VMG. The boat will not "feel" much different.

[Barra]

Agree with everything you are saying about the practical reality of cats downwind tupea.

I would add another reason to this effectiveness vs laziness argument and that's swept back spreaders. 130 to 140 AWA is about the limit for keeping a well trimmed main on most of them.

W8ngsail if you get off the disparaging cat sailor bandwagon and listen to him you would learn a bit I reckon

Peace.

[ozsailer]

Gday Stephen,
I currently own a Lagoon 440 and previous to that a Lagoon 410. I am curious to your question, and if I may can I find out the intention of your possible purchase. Regardless of what type of boat you are purchasig be it a catamaran or mono I find some people take a point of difference in a boat and make a considerable amout out of it when basically it will feature very little in the overall scheme of things when you are cruising.
But in regard to the Lagoon 440 pointing ability, Its not brilliant compared to a Cat with dagger boards - thats a given BUT but its quite acceptable to us given that we cruise 6 months of the year. We often outsail many production monos of comparable length to windward but once again this can be put down to many factors including the experience of the skipper.
When cruising who really cares about sailing angles - really. Unless your a fanatic or racing then thats a different topic and does become a genuine consideration and the Lagoon 440 would not be on my list.
There are many great catamarans out there that may tick the box for you but but in reality in my opinion is the angle of sail to windward so critical to you that you would discount a boat over that.



Greg H
Lagoon 440
Oz

[Belezar]

Originally Posted by smj

That’s like me saying I chartered an OI 41 a few times so all monohull are pigs.
Maybe charter a more performance oriented cat before making a ridiculous blanket statement?

Nothing ridiculous, and i am positive on the platform. Look at what I said. Charter and performance orientation seem to be opposites, but chime in if you feel otherwise. Cheers

[smj]

Originally Posted by Belezar

Nothing ridiculous, and i am positive on the platform. Look at what I said. Charter and performance orientation seem to be opposites, but chime in if you feel otherwise. Cheers

My apologies, I reread the post and now see your meaning.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Barra

I would add another reason to this effectiveness vs laziness argument and that's swept back spreaders. 130 to 140 AWA is about the limit for keeping a well trimmed main on most of them.

This is a very valid point (pun).

Lazy yes. There are also people who buy very large cats and find sail handling a chore. So much so that they only go from anchorage to anchorage as a form of transport they don't actually go sailing anymore.

As I said before Prout mini mainsail big genoa arrangement works much better for down wind. Lagoon have addressed this by putting the mast in the middle of the coach roof on one of their new models a la Prout. This in effect moves the CE of the mainsail aft, that in theory would make the boat point up (mainsail only), or maybe with a very small staysail.

Anyone have a polar for one of these as a comparison. Better tacking angle maybe?

Try as the marketing department might to promote any increase in pointing ability the boat is a shed with poor aerodynamics and fixed keels so it may be able to point higher and have a smaller tacking angle will it get you there any faster? Marketing would be far better to extol the virtues of it's better overall balance off wind and downwind when a big genoa is added into the pot.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

There are many great catamarans out there that may tick the box for you but but in reality in my opinion is the angle of sail to windward so critical to you that you would discount a boat over that.

Greg H
Lagoon 440
Oz

Unfortunately, there is an unfounded public perception that cats don't point. A lot of them don't, this could also be said of a huge number of mono's, ketches point poorly but make pleasant long term live a boards.
Gipsy Moth IV, made famous by Sir Francis Chichester was reportedly totally useless to windward. So pointing ability should not be a deciding factor.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

in reality in my opinion is the angle of sail to windward so critical to you that you would discount a boat over that?

Greg H
Lagoon 440
Oz

Well, Yes Greg, it would. We all have different priorities in mind when choosing a boat, and I am not critical of people who choose the platform and accommodations of a cruising catamaran over sailing ability and who have no worries motoring much of the time. I'm glad they enjoy that type of cruising and I am sure that their boats are very luxurious.

But for me, I'm not looking for an expansive house on the water. I love to sail. I want a boat that can sail effectively any direction in any weather.

I also like to race.

So the upwind sailing angles, and a lot of other features that enhance sailing performance are important and factor into my choice of a boat.

What I have wound up with is a 43' racing monohull with a big and (to my way of thinking) luxurious interior which has served as my home, hobby and sport for the last 34 years.

And we always sail. If there is wind we're sailing not motoring. That's just us.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by wingssail

But for me, I'm not looking for an expansive house on the water. I love to sail. I want a boat that can sail effectively any direction in any weather.

I also like to race.

So the upwind sailing angles, and a lot of other features that enhance sailing performance are important and factor into my choice of a boat.

What I have wound up with is a 43' racing monohull with a big and (to my way of thinking) luxurious interior which has served as my home, hobby and sport for the last 34 years.

And we always sail. If there is wind we're sailing not motoring. That's just us.

There are many cats that achieve this, some that would trounce your mono in certain conditions and a few that would trounce it in all conditions.

What you have identified is the overlap of styles, designs and uses.

What the OP asked was "Catamaran tacking angles, really that bad" What he is really asking will he be disappointed with a L440 compared to his GibSea 43.

A GibSea 43 is a mediocre performance monohull (no insult intended) and a Lagoon 440 a mediocre performance catamaran (again no insult intended) their sailing characteristics are different.

Given the choice of these two boats excluding price or accommodation. The GibSea will be better to windward and worse off the wind. If the OP intends sailing the wrong way around the world or competing round the bouys on a Wednesday afternoon then stick with the GS 43. The L440 on the other hand would be better suited to reaching along the Algarve or sailing the right way round the world.

So we need to understand and question the OP's intended use.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

I love my Outremer ,it has a self tacking job which is easy to handle etc . But the way it is installed from the factory it doesn’t work at all , in fact I installed control lines to make it at least passable. This is not about me not doing it right its about crap geometry. I have seen other Danson 45s with the same customization

You main the straight athwartships jib traveller track? Same on the 55.

But, we accept the vice, which to be fair only matters when tacking. During the tack, as we go through the eye of the wind, the jib traveller only makes it back to the centreline and sticks. That allows the jib to back wind, which helps to make the tack, especially in lumpy conditions. It also give us time to mess around with the main traveller and the running backstays.

Once we’re on the new tack we ease the jib sheet enough so that the jib traveller slides down the track to its upwind stop. This provides a powerful jib to accelerate out of the tack. As the boat speeds up, we winch in the jib sheet by the amount we eased to release the traveller.

Of course, when close reaching we use a barber hauler to tighten the leach. When broad reaching in lighter air and larger seas we use the barber hauler to keep the clew out.

Retrofitting to a constant-radius track would be insanely expensive and create an awful trip hazard.

An alternative would be to remove the track (ahhh, the weight) and change to a floating jib lead. We’re going to do this for our new staysail and decide whether it’s worth doing for the jib too.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

This is a very valid point (pun).

Lazy yes. There are also people who buy very large cats and find sail handling a chore. So much so that they only go from anchorage to anchorage as a form of transport they don't actually go sailing anymore.

As I said before Prout mini mainsail big genoa arrangement works much better for down wind. Lagoon have addressed this by putting the mast in the middle of the coach roof on one of their new models a la Prout. This in effect moves the CE of the mainsail aft, that in theory would make the boat point up (mainsail only), or maybe with a very small staysail.

Anyone have a polar for one of these as a comparison. Better tacking angle maybe?

Try as the marketing department might to promote any increase in pointing ability the boat is a shed with poor aerodynamics and fixed keels so it may be able to point higher and have a smaller tacking angle will it get you there any faster? Marketing would be far better to extol the virtues of it's better overall balance off wind and downwind when a big genoa is added into the pot.

This design concept is nothing to do with pointing ability and all about putting more sail area into easily furled sails that are relatively cheap - boom or mast furling are way too expensive at the charter/lower end of the cat market. A large mainsail is very important for pointing ability and that isn’t important for boats that are not design-optimised for upwind sailing. Makes a lot of sense for cruising cats and monohulls as well.

This concept is being used with great effect in the single/short handed IMOCA 60s and the round the world trimarans - relatively small main used as the primary power control, and 3 or 4 furled jib and code sails permanently available up front for throttle control. Not optimised for close upwind (too much drag with all the furled sails), but very convenient for anything below that. They use structural furlers (no permanent forestay) for lighter weight and tighter furls.

Note that these furling headsails can only be used fully unfurled - no reefing - so having the correctly sized sails for their reefing charts ready to use is very convenient for single and short handed crews. The extra foredeck space also allows them to use multiple sails - the fully crewed Ocean Race boats often fly 2 or 3 J-sails simultaneously.

For those of us with ‘traditional’ large main/small foretriangle set ups, we can only extend forward with bow poles. These come with their own problems, not the least being increased LOA. Sigh.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, Yes Greg, it would. We all have different priorities in mind when choosing a boat, and I am not critical of people who choose the platform and accommodations of a cruising catamaran over sailing ability and who have no worries motoring much of the time. I'm glad they enjoy that type of cruising and I am sure that their boats are very luxurious.

But for me, I'm not looking for an expansive house on the water. I love to sail. I want a boat that can sail effectively any direction in any weather.

I also like to race.

So the upwind sailing angles, and a lot of other features that enhance sailing performance are important and factor into my choice of a boat.

What I have wound up with is a 43' racing monohull with a big and (to my way of thinking) luxurious interior which has served as my home, hobby and sport for the last 34 years.

And we always sail. If there is wind we're sailing not motoring. That's just us.

i found so far 2 types of sailor boats - singles and couples. Singles say what you say, couples are more concerned with comfort as there is social aspect of living on boat present.

If i was alone, would also look for more performance/ruggidity. But as a couple our choice is ideal.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i found so far 2 types of sailor boats - singles and couples. Singles say what you say, couples are more concerned with comfort as there is social aspect of living on boat present.



If i was alone, would also look for more performance/ruggidity. But as a couple our choice is ideal.

Not necessarily true. AFAIK, WS is part of a couple and both chose their boat. Same for the Cates. Same for the Dashews. Et cetera. Another anecdote, my wife and I both chose our performance oriented boat as we both prefer to sail well. There are many more couples like this.

Whatever boat you chose is right for you. Don’t push the reason for your decision onto your partner.