Catamaran live-aboard advice

[Stefano_90]

Hello everyone,
I am new to the forum and have been reading for a while trying to soak all the information, but I think is time to ask more specific questions.

I am 31 now and since this last two years I am feeling a compelling need to get away from society and been dreaming for enough time to get on a boat and sail away.

I am settled on a small/medium catamaran rather than monohull, and I am settled on building one, since I am good with manual work and have the means to do it. Further to that, I would rather spend my time creating some value for a new design boat that will have good resale value in a few years, rather than refitting an old hull. ( Build a small one--> sail it a few years---> sell it and get a bigger one)

I have also pretty much settled down on a Raku ( Grainger design), I have been in contact with the designer and he's been very helpful with my 1000 questions but now the choice is mine.
The million dollar question is: In your experience, a 36 foot catamaran will have enough space for a young active couple as a live aboard?
The actual displacement figures are:
Light ship 3000kg
Waterline level 3700
Max 4500
Which should mean that we could carry max 1500 kg including fuel and water, or about 700 kg personal belongings.
We would really need a basic fit out, no fuss.

Looking at the plans here I would also do without the single bed( would become wardrobe) and I would trade the fixed bed in the saloon for a sofa bed ( where the seats and table transform in a bed) so the saloon would have more space.

https://www.graingerdesigns.net/raku...arans/raku-36/


The obvious reason why I am asking opinions is that a 36' would see the water a good 1000 hours of work earlier with approximately 60000USD less material cost ( estimated by the builder) and at my age these would be 2 years of bonus cruising!

Another design I would have considered would have been Oram ( a 39 would be perfect) but apparently he is retired and I really don't know how to get a hold of him..

Shionning arrow 1200 looks very race oriented with 14.5:1 LB ratio I suspect the same space in the hulls as a Raku 36, with the higher price.

Cheers!

[Tupaia]

I am assuming you are in Australia?

Before building at least see if you can get a ride on one or more of the chosen boats. Building is a huge commitment so making the right choice before you build is essential.

[Factor]

11 Metres is plenty for a couple, Grainger is a great designer and has an artistry as well. My one comment is if you build this with daggerboards , go with the Outboards, putting diesels in will just use up a great lump of payload and you will have exposed sail drives. If for some reason you must have diesels then you need to sue the fixed keel version, (a) to protect sail drives and (b) to provide bouncy to offset the weight of the diesels.

[Fore and Aft]

Stefano_90 I think a 1000 hours build time is very optimistic. Your already talking about resale value so you need a high quality finish. That could easily take 1000 hours in itself, I would estimate a 100 hours in just masking the boat if you are painting the inside and outside.
If you have never built a boat then you will have no idea how long it takes to get those sweet sexy curves. Particularly if you have not handled a coving tool or trowel. I look back on my days on the tools and how long it took to learn to lay down an acceptable bog trail or cove.
When you come to sell her any knowledgeable buyer or surveyor is going to spot your mistakes.
Cheers

[Stefano_90]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I am assuming you are in Australia?

Before building at least see if you can get a ride on one or more of the chosen boats. Building is a huge commitment so making the right choice before you build is essential.

Unfortunately I am not in Australia, but from the mediterranean ( Slovenia). As far as I am aware there are no Raku 36 in the water, but I migth be wrong..
I did have a look at other 36' in my area but they are charter boats and have a lot of space.. Not really my thing..
I am looking for a sexy fast cruiser to get in the water and do a few years before upgrading..

@Factor, I agree with you, also from the cost side.. outboard will keep costs down and I am considering also electric, but that is another story..

[Fore and Aft]

Stefano_90 I just checked my files and I have surveyed a Schionning Arrow 1200 built by a professional boat builder and he spent way longer than 6 months (1000 hours) building her.
Cheers

[Stefano_90]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Stefano_90 I think a 1000 hours build time is very optimistic. Your already talking about resale value so you need a high quality finish. That could easily take 1000 hours in itself, I would estimate a 100 hours in just masking the boat if you are painting the inside and outside.
If you have never built a boat then you will have no idea how long it takes to get those sweet sexy curves. Particularly if you have not handled a coving tool or trowel. I look back on my days on the tools and how long it took to learn to lay down an acceptable bog trail or cove.
When you come to sell her any knowledgeable buyer or surveyor is going to spot your mistakes.
Cheers

H, I totally agree with you! I think My original post has been misunderstood.. The main comparison I am doing is between a 40 feet ( Raku or Shionning) and a 36 feet. I am trying to understand if a 36 feet would be enough( I believe it would) and I intended to say that a 36' would cost approximately 50000$ less than a 40 feet, and take approximately 1000 hours less than a 40 feet, thus giving me an extra year of sailing time around the med and 50K extra cash.

[Stefano_90]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Stefano_90 I just checked my files and I have surveyed a Schionning Arrow 1200 built by a professional boat builder and he spent way longer than 6 months (1000 hours) building her.
Cheers

I should add that I am leaning towards a 36 feet as there is the possibility of having supplied full size VE panels ( 11m) vacuum infused and already fair/gelcoated on one side, which should speed up the build even more.. This is not possible on bigger sizes due to transport issues..

[valhalla360]

If you are just trying to "escape" don't be surprised when you escape to a new set of problems. Met plenty of "escapees" who were bitter along our travels.

But more directly to your question, yeah, 1000hr does seem really optimistic. Particularly if this is your first time building a boat.

Also, a popular production boar rebuild will likely get you far more resale value per dollar/hour put into the project. One-off home built boats tend to sell at a steep discount because people don't know the quality of your work (and 1000hr likely means you are cutting corners). Most won't ever open the online advertisement, let alone go down to the marina and see the boat in person. A brand name boat will have a much better resale as there are people already looking for that exact boat.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Stefano_90

I should add that I am leaning towards a 36 feet as there is the possibility of having supplied full size VE panels ( 11m) vacuum infused and already fair/gelcoated on one side, which should speed up the build even more.. This is not possible on bigger sizes due to transport issues..

The hull is actually only 20-30% of the build. It's all the fiddly bits that take time and dollars.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you are just trying to "escape" don't be surprised when you escape to a new set of problems. Met plenty of "escapees" who were bitter along our travels.

But more directly to your question, yeah, 1000hr does seem really optimistic. Particularly if this is your first time building a boat.

Also, a popular production boar rebuild will likely get you far more resale value per dollar/hour put into the project. One-off home built boats tend to sell at a steep discount because people don't know the quality of your work (and 1000hr likely means you are cutting corners). Most won't ever open the online advertisement, let alone go down to the marina and see the boat in person. A brand name boat will have a much better resale as there are people already looking for that exact boat.

I think the OP was actually saying the the 36 would be a 1000 hours less work than building the 40, not that it would take 1000 hours to build the 36.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

I think the OP was actually saying the the 36 would be a 1000 hours less work than building the 40, not that it would take 1000 hours to build the 36.

Then I still disagree.

Installing a pair of 20hp diesel engines isn't going to take significantly less time than a pair of 30hp diesel engines. Probably negligible cost savings also.

In some situations, the lack of space may make it take longer fit because you are squeezing the same item in a smaller space, so it's more fiddly work to get it in.

This applies across most of the major systems. In many cases (stove, fridge, etc), they are essentially identical. In others, they are simply smaller but still take roughly the same time to install (rigging, winches, etc...).

Of course, since the OP has not indicated he has built a cruising boat before or even owned one, if I had to lay odds, I would say 95% a new boat build will never get finished and 75% a major rehab of an existing boat doesn't get finished. He may be that outlier who gets it done but most of the time people think they will get a cheap boat by doing it themselves are on a fools errand.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just being debby-downer but better he know it's huge task and the odds are stacked against him before he commits and it's hard to back out.

[aqfishing]

Yip, seen enough half built boats lying around in yards, fields and sheds!

[JasonBRose]

Stefano_90, I love Grainger boats and checked out a few before I bought my Catana. Sorry people misunderstood your "1000hr less" comment. I'm sure you know that it's going to take years to build a 36 or a 40 ft cat. I bought an old mono in my 20s and spent 4 years fixing her up before cruising 8 years throughout the Pacific. I also spent 8 months installing all the systems on a 37' mono that a buddy of mine built.

First the question of living on a 36' cat. Of course it can be done. It all depends on how minimalistic you are. I like the recommendation of outboards to keep things lighter and more simple. The key will be for you to keep the boat simple and to keep your personal belongings under control. At your age it's easy to travel light and keep it small, for some reason as you get older and your body starts hurting because you've spent years bending in contorting in boats, you end up wanting more creature comforts. Remember that you won't be 31 anymore by the time this boat is finished and you might want some more of those creature comforts that the 40 allows.

The Raku 36 is a beautiful and sleek looking boat. I suspect that Grainger put a bed in the saloon because the hulls are too narrow for a proper double bed. Most of his older designs had bridge deck berths and the aft cabins I've seen on the Lightwave and Mystery Cove designs are really cramped. I'd be tempted to keep the saloon berth and redesign the aft cabins, but be careful what you put in there. A berth is pretty light, don't add something that's going to add a lot of weight.

The other problem with a 36' cat is hobby horsing. I cruised for years in a 32' full keeled mono. I swore that my next boat would have at least a 40' waterline. The Raku does maximize it's waterline with the reverse bows, but length equals comfort in a seaway. For me cats in the 38-42' range are the sweet spot for comfort/cost. Normally Grainger boats have plenty of bridge deck clearance, but you might want to compare the difference between the 36 and the 40.

Bottom line, building a boat is a huge commitment. Cruising is a beautiful lifestyle, but it doesn't fix anything. If you have problems ashore, you're going to have those same problems cruising....for the most part. Getting away from the rat race and slowing your life down are the biggest advantages. Building a boat and sailing it away is an amazing feat if you pull it off. Just remember everything takes twice as long and costs twice as much as you'd expect.

[rabbi]

Be sure you know what you are getting into.

In the early 2000s I had a similar dream, but spent a few months reading through every building blog I could find. Blogs typically included all the ugly details and numbers, unlike today's shiny YT channels which just show edited reality to sell the drama.

Plenty (most?) projects were abandoned / sold, very few made it to the end, and even fewer went sailing fulltime as they dreamed of.
Of those who started with a partner/family almost nobody still had an intact family to go cruising with. Actually I remember only one happy family.


By the time a homebuilt boat is ready for departure the young active couple will be 5+ years older, tired and sick of boat building, and probably have created some offspring along the way.
Of course only if (and that is a big IF) the couple is still a couple. Often its no a one-man-show.


Resale value... I don't think you will create significant value by building a boat. I guess at the end most DIY projects at least in Europe sell at or below costs for material. If you do make money it will be very very little, you will likely earn less than 5 Euro per hour spent on building the boat.

If you want resale value: spend your time on the internet, scout for bargain deals of any suitable boat model, and be ready to buy one if it crosses your way.
For example I once bought a boat with completely run-down electronics, electrics, and a few other nicks and dents: Radar defunc, autopilot physically broken and also giving errors, tridata with strange readings. Batteries were new but almost dead, ...
She fell through the survey with a previous buyer. She was a complete mess and nobody wanted her. I bought her, installed all new electronics, fixed everything else and sold two years later with 30k profit.


There are IMO only two valid reasons for building a boat.
1) You -and your partner- enjoy the build more than the sailing. Nothing wrong with that, have fun!
2) You want something that just does not exist on the market. And you want it badly enough to justify years wasted in the building shed instead of being on the water.


If you don't fall into either category I'd suggest to get a production boat and just go sailing. If you don't have enough money to buy one then work overtime, or get a second job. You will still have more spare time & money than anyone building a boat.
It may not be the perfect boat you picture in your dreams but at the end it just doesn't matter.

Sunsets are the same for everyone and I have met plenty of happy folks on really shitty boats.