Catamaran Charter Issue in Greece

[SFer]

If you have the time, I'd like to get some feedback on some issues I've had with Dream Yacht Charter. I apologize in advance for the length of the post. At this moment I am supposed to be on a bare boat catamaran charter in the Saronic Gulf of Greece. Instead, I'm in a pre-war flat in Berlin.

When I booked a catamaran last October, Dream Yacht Charter sent me a reservation confirmation email with a footnote that said I would need a "sailing license" to charter in Greece. Then, about 10 days prior to the charter they emailed me saying I needed to give them a copy of my "sailing license." I missed the note from the October email, so I asked them what I thought was a simple question - "What is a sailing license and how do I get one?"

As it turns out, they didn't know. I ended up speaking with three different people and no one could tell me. At one point they said I just needed to take an online quiz and they linked me directly to a quiz page on NauticEd. I immediately took the quiz, but after completing it, the result had nothing to do with a "sailing license." So I called them to clarify. They were as confused as I was. They said they'd email the base in Greece and maybe I would just have a skipper for one day. They had no idea. So I waited.

They came back and just restated that I needed a "sailing license" or pay $1200 more for a skipper. My head just about exploded. It was now 2 days before leaving for Athens and all they could do was ask for more money and demand a document they could not explain.

They even said the requirement was clearly stated in my contract. So I read the contract. It's nowhere in the contract. It also wasn't referenced in the customer portal where you input all the required charter information like crew members, passports, and sailing resume.

Out of frustration, I called Moorings just to see how they handled it. In 2 minutes on the phone Moorings gave me a very clear answer about what was needed for Greece and pointed me to a PDF on their web site with all the details. As the document said, a "sailing license" in Europe is any of about 4-5 certifications with very specific requirements. Some are pretty easy to meet. At this point it dawned on me that had Dream Yacht Charter simply given me this information when I asked what a sailing license was, I could have easily solved for it and I'd be in Greece, not Berlin. But by this time, it was too late.

So my family rallied and we organized a different week in Europe - with a lot of money sitting with Dream Yacht Charter. I asked for my money back and they refused pointing me to the email they sent to me in October requiring a "sailing license." I reminded them that they couldn't tell me what it was or how to get it, but that didn't seem to matter to them.

The day before we got on the plane - and after we had already re-planned our trip - they offered a free skipper. We had already canceled flights and put deposits on flats in a few cities in Europe in an attempt to salvage our vacation. Regardless, I told them a skipper was not an option. We prefer to anchor out in more remote places and didn't like the idea of a stranger living in one of the bows.

Am I crazy to think I deserve a refund? They seem to think this is all my fault - that I failed to meet a requirement they could not explain. So they have emphatically said "no" to a refund.

Has anyone else been through something like this? When I mention this to friends, they are incredulous, but Dream Yacht Charter has made it very clear in multiple emails that I am to blame for all of this.

And any comments or feedback or suggestions would be most appreciated.

[LongRange]

Sorry to hear about the frustrations.

How much sailing experience do you have, and what formal qualifications? Did they ask that, and if so what did you say to them?

The situation seems similar to paying ahead of time for a car rental, only to find out that a driver's license is required, and that the rental company didn't do a good job of making that clear in their brochures or contracts. I am not a lawyer, but I imagine there is an expectation that somebody hiring a car would understand some formal proof of competence is required.

A cat capable of accommodating a family for a week costs hundreds of thousands of euro to buy, and then there's the other boats and people around it. Insurance would not be likely to pay for damage incurred while under command of an unqualified skipper.

Southern Europe isn't big on observing their own laws, and I find it entirely believable that their paperwork is substandard, but I cannot help thinking they were accommodating to offer a free skipper, and most of the misunderstanding is on your side. No offence intended, and I hope it is sorted out at least somewhat amicably.

[SFer]

Thanks, LongRange. And I appreciate the feedback. This has been a confusing journey.

It's funny you mention the drivers license, because when we booked a car, it was very clear what we had to do.

As for my sailing experience, I've sailed since a kid and the last 20 years on San Francisco Bay in mostly fresh conditions on boats 35 feet +. I don't have formal certification, but I could have received it had Dream Yacht Charter simply told me what was required. At one point I told them that they were a reference since I had chartered twice before with them over the years.

For me it boils down to wanting a simple answer to the question "what is a sailing license?" and there was no answer, yet they required one. They claim to be the second largest charter company in the world and I found it frustrating that they just couldn't answer the question when Moorings could.

In any event, we will certainly move on to another company in the future.

[riki]

Never heard you can rent a cat without any kind of licence, would be very surprised if anybody would rent you a cat.
Don't you need a licence in the Us for that same kind of vessel?

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by riki

Never heard you can rent a cat without any kind of licence, would be very surprised if anybody would rent you a cat.

Don't you need a licence in the Us for that same kind of vessel?

The US requires no “license” to own or operate a private vessel. In addition to rent a charter boat, anywhere in the Caribbean, no “License” is required. A sailing resume will suffice.

[alex_sauvage]

Internet is your friend - quick Google search shows this page from Ed Hamilton:
Greece
Greece has long had regulations regarding qualifications, and an equally long history of enforcing them only sporadically and loosely. Until recently, a bareboat skipper could sign an “Official Statement” that was more or less an affidavit attesting to the fact that he or she had sailing experience and could sail the yacht, and that was enough to satisfy the port authorities.

This year in particular, Greece has tightened up enforcement of these regulations so that it is now necessary to have some sort of license. There are a host of documents that could suffice, including the most basic ASA or U.S. Sailing certifications (Basic Keelboat). The Greek regulations are still a bit loose in that it's almost safe to say that anything that looks official will work.

Maybe that`s why Dream charters could not give you a clear definition of the licence? Croatia on another hand has a long list of acceptable licenses from various countries. But the question of a "license" for a bareboat charter in Europe is widely discussed on Internet (even on this forum) and in various pilot guides, so if you did any research regarding sailing in Greece it is hard to see how you did not come across of it

[bensolomon]

You need the International Certificate of Competency. It's all over the Internet when considering chartering in Europe. It's an R Y A certification that requires a fair amount of coursework, but it's easy enough to get in the States. You can do it on one weekend. It is what I did prior to chartering in Greece and now as I look ahead to Croatia.

If you're in the states, I would recommend Mark@yachting education.com. he is an Rya instructor and can give the credentials needed. He is awesome! His website is www.yachtingeducation.com. For educational purposes I highly recommend www.nauticed.org.

I have been sailing since I was a little child however these certifications are necessary to ensure a minimum standard of confidence in other countries. I can tell you from personal experience that I thought I knew what I was doing but taking these courses and getting this particular certification made me a much better Mariner. as long as you study, you should be able to pass the international Certificate of Competency. As I said, the test is on board a vessel and only takes a day and a half.

[LongRange]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The US requires no “license” to own or operate a private vessel. In addition to rent a charter boat, anywhere in the Caribbean, no “License” is required. A sailing resume will suffice.

I figured it might be that type of "cultural" difference.

It's more of a certification than a license, in the sense that the water police don't care, but the insurance companies most certainly do.

Since Greece attracts so many foreigners (hello!) with its opportunities for great sailing, they tend to be quite flexible in terms of what foreign certificates they will accept. I agree that it's quite reprehensible that their office staff were not able to explain the requirements, and that they seemingly couldn't put themselves in the shoes of a North American customer who may never before have encountered the situation. That is simply unprofessional from a large charter company.

I had a similar situation when I bought my boat in Italy last year. The Italians are ten times as militant about paperwork and requirements as the Greeks, at least in the North, except they couldn't quite work out what qualifications were required by an Australian in Italian waters operating his own Italian-flagged vessel. Eventually they concluded that I needed to have the same "license" that was required of me back home in Australia, except Australia has no such thing as a "sailing license", so they made me go to the Australian embassy to ask for a special document that said "He doesn't need a boat license for that in Australia", except I had a snowball's chance in hell of getting any such paperwork from our embassy, them not being into boating but also being loathe to even consider putting anything on paper, being the litigious society we are...

...and in the end it was all done through personal connections and favours, the European way.

When he heard of my paperwork woes, a North Italian surveyor said "you should've done the paperwork while you were down in South Italy (where I bought the boat). Down there for 100 euro they'll give you a license for a 747, and down there it'll be legal too"

[SFer]

Thanks, everyone for the feedback.

I will no doubt get a required certificate as we will want to charter in both Greece and Croatia. I guess my frustration is with not getting any kind of simple answer from the company that I was chartering with. I spoke with three different people and could not get an answer. At the time, I guess I figured I needed their answer vs. something I would find online to be sure I met their requirement. But in the end, getting an answer somewhere else, anwhere else (including here) would have been more efficient.

I chartered four times previously in the Bahamas and Mexico with both Dream Yacht Charter and Moorings and my sailing resume sufficed at the time. I appreciate now that there are laws in effect in Europe. I just wish Dream Yacht Charter could have just explained it to me the first time I asked as Moorings did.

From what Moorings told me, if you are in the U.S., all I needed to do was take the online quize at NauticEd (which I did when Dream Yacht Charter told me that's all I needed to do) AND get a one-day "test out" with a club. Had I known that just one day earlier, I could have pulled it off.

For the record, I've attached the document that Moorings gave me when I called them (when it was too late to do anything about it). It's very clear and specific. And they were super helpful about the topic even though I had not given them any money for a charter.

Thanks again for the feedback. I hope to sail in the Med soon!

[wcapital]

I've chartered many vessels over the last 4 decades, many of them catamarans including at least one larger one which the company normally did not allow to go out bareboat. Never once had I ever been asked to show any sort of credentials. The more frequent requirement for them seems to be a recent trend - whereas a drivers' license has been an obvious, known requirement to drive a vehicle since before I was born - so that comparison holds no water.

However, I've never chartered in Europe; but I DO know, as a casual reader of these blogs and various publications, that such licenses ARE more commonly required - and would not think of putting my money down and committing to a charter and associated travel without first figuring out exactly what would be required and being certain I could fulfill such requirements.

That being said, if it is accurately described, I would regard the performance of Dream as, at best, grossly incompetent - and at worst perhaps deceptive and even fraudulent.

In light of the above, I would continue to press for a significant refund - but not accept a complete one. If what had been paid was done with a credit card, I would file a complaint with them, asking for charges to be reversed. While they may not have expertise in yacht charter, you may find an ally who will help negotiate.

And, while it's obviously too late now, I would suggest a better approach might have been to continue with the charter while paying the extra for a captain for a day or two while trying to move quickly to satisfy one of the requirements for a license - and continuing to fight with Dream over bearing that cost. Most charter captains know how to be unobtrusive and in most cases can add a lot in the way of "local knowledge" that can enhance the experience.

[vintzi]

Hello to everyone. I am professional greek skipper and i may answer all questions regarding chartering in Greece. Also i am an instructor for IYT and we combine vacation with saliing diploma bareboat skipper

[CriO61]

Yikes - so sorry to hear about your situation. I believe an SLC license is required for Europe. I would check out NauticEd.org to get more info about that!

[vintzi]

Hello to everyone. I am professional greek skipper and i may answer all questions regarding chartering in Greece. Also i am an instructor for IYT and we combine vacation with saliing diploma bareboat skipper. I belong to the Greek skippers association and we deal as captains with all such problems every day.

[Dogscout]

Regarding getting the correct and best answer. On the phone and through e-mail correspondence with big companies, you are often talking to the lowest paid person in the office. If the answer for Tortola is different than the answer for Athens they likely have no idea which is the correct one.

[vintzi]

Please note that Greece is not like any other place in the world for sailing and sea and clear seas and climate. We do not blame the state for asking
sailing diplomas. The coastline is 12000 miles. The wearther is good but when it turns bad is really bad. Not even one company not a person nobody will trust someone that has not the appropriate sailing skills and diploma. Why to risk lifes? Why to risk boats? Greece is a traditional. Country in its navy and holds the biggest commercial fleet in the world. So greeks know better what does it meen to sail without knowledge and at least a diploma that certifies that the beholder has at least the basic knowledge in weather of 50 miles of wind.