Can you have Comfort, Value and Performance in a Catamaran?

[Sbonder]

Originally Posted by Astroman

Noticeable difference in performance between Outremer and Privilege/Lagoon. Noticeable difference with comfort between Privilege/Lagoon and Outremer for 6 person family. And, Noticeable difference between Lagoon and Privilege/Outremer build quality.

pick two. For me, it's comfort and value and then optimizing sail plan, options and captaining skills to get as much performance I can out of a cruising cat. (Folding props, code zero, skills, junk I take, etc.)

I'm also considering long term value. Depreciation of a 5 year old boat is going to be much less than a brand new Lagoon. If you have it for more than 5 years, that privilege will probably be worth more than the lagoon even though it's 5 years older.

From what I read, Privilege is marginally better performer than big three FP, lagoon, Leopard. My biggest complaint with Privilege? Why don't they open up those windows in the saloon? Word is the new version of the 51 does have bigger windows.

I agree completely with the above. I have sailed an older and smaller Lagoon and a 2018 Privilege Series 5. Not apples to apples at all so the sailing comparison is not worth delving into from me. But, build quality, and luxury are totally different. Privilege wins that hands down. You can see/feel a lot of the difference at the dock at boat shows. But, under sail the difference was even more noticeable. The Privilege was solid, no creaking, and every component felt super secure. Every clutch, winch, etc. was beefy as hell.

[capnmatt]

What about Voyage yachts? I chartered a 520 in the BVIs several years ago with my family and friends and it seemed to strike a great balance between the three qualifiers. I've been on several Lagoons and Fountain Pajot's to compare and I felt the Voyage was faster overall, more responsive, and built better too. It didn't give much up in the way of comfort or roominess either. They might be slightly more expensive compared to Lagoon and FP, but I think you can get into a new well outfitted 480 for just a bit over your target price. There are older 50'+ models available for less than $750,000 (some much less) and a couple ~5 year old 480s on Yachtworld in the $600K range. When I was looking at boats in hopes of cruising with my family (now a distant dream) I had the same criteria as you and I kept coming back to Voyage as the best all around boat for our needs. Visually at least, they are pretty similar to the Simonis that was linked to on the prior page.

Matt

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by capnmatt

What about Voyage yachts?
Matt

Matt,
Thanks for introducing me to Voyage Yachts. I have done so much research and I have never seen this brand in posts, magazines or at boat shows. I will definitely look into them more. PM me if you have direct contact with them.

Regarding Privilege, I want to clarify where they sit. They are in the premium comfort category with a noticeable difference between FP, Lagoon and Leopard. The only reason they are on my list is because I would consider an 5-10 year old Privilege along with as a newer 1-2 year old production boat (same price!). However, they can't keep up with a performnce cat like catana, outremer, seawind, etc...

The boat I continually forget about is Nautitech. It seems to tick the boxes of performance, value and comfort. I don't like the helm position. There is a new 542 coming out that looks rad.

A new privilege 510 is 1.6 million Sail away.

[NevilleCat]

Still can't believe not a single comment from anyone on the boat I linked in post 86.
An almost new, what looks to be an Atlantic 48 and looks well made. Those are Aussie dollars so you could spend $100k shipping it to wherever (but why would you?) and still have a few years worth of cruising kitty out of your budget.

[Astroman]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Still can't believe not a single comment from anyone on the boat I linked in post 86.
An almost new, what looks to be an Atlantic 48 and looks well made. Those are Aussie dollars so you could spend $100k shipping it to wherever (but why would you?) and still have a few years worth of cruising kitty out of your budget.

Hard to comment on a custom cat. There will be no reviews, no data, no prior history, etc. I'm not saying it's not a great cat, just not sure what can be said without sailing it, weighing it, etc.

[capnmatt]

Originally Posted by Astroman

Matt,
Thanks for introducing me to Voyage Yachts. I have done so much research and I have never seen this brand in posts, magazines or at boat shows. I will definitely look into them more. PM me if you have direct contact with them.

I don't have any direct contact with them and have only sailed on a Voyage one time about eight years ago. They aren't a huge player in the market but have a presence in the BVIs through Voyage charters and there are also several of their boats cruising under private ownership. They have pared down their sail line and now only make a 480 and their new 590 along with a 65' power cat and a 45' sail cat designed for day charters. I'm not sure but I think right now most of their production is placed into charter in Tortola - though I don't see why they wouldn't sell one for private use. They used to have a great pricing page on their website where you could choose your boat and then outfit it with a large list of options, but I can't find it anymore. I did previously price out a 480 model and I think it was right around $750,000 with most of the popular options including a downwind sail and rig. Contacting Voyage charters would probably be the best way to get more information such as pricing and availability - I have a feeling they are the primary dealer for them. Would also be the people to talk to if you are interested in trying one out - I would think/hope they'd apply the cost of a charter towards an eventual purchase.


I should mention I also sailed a Fountain Pajot Saba 50 a few years after being on the Voyage and that was a great boat as well. A little less nimble than the Voyage but maybe just a bit more spacious. I believe a new Saba is closer to the million mark though. We recently chartered a FP Sayona 47 and FWIW, I did not love how it sailed and I thought it was a bit quirky in general. Maybe more time on it would have changed my mind.



Matt

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Astroman

The boat I continually forget about is Nautitech. It seems to tick the boxes of performance, value and comfort. I don't like the helm position. There is a new 542 coming out that looks rad.

A new privilege 510 is 1.6 million Sail away.

If you can afford Nauthitech 542, go for it. Otherwise N 46 open is also great boat, she will sail significantly better than FP or Lagoon. If you don't like the helm position , you can go for the fly version which I own one. I am not big fan of flybridges but I had it because charter clients love it.. She's a bit slower than Open version but not worse than FP or Lagoon.
Finishes in Nauthitec's is parity to FP and Lagoon. N 542 being their flagship, is obviously much better.

Cheers

Yeloya

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Hahahahaha, Ive changed my mind about coffee cups Staying where I put it,
And that Cats stay level and flat most of the time,

My shake down cruise three weeks ago, Wind well in excess of 30 knots,
I turned my spreader lights on to look at the ocean, Turned them off again immediately. I didnt like what I saw,
It was one very nasty and wild looking ocean, Bass Straight,
Worst storm Ive ever been in,

My Little Cat was at 45 degrees side to side constantly, Rocking sideways,
Every thing was on the floor,
It was that bad I thought the mast would snap off, It was getting battered violently,
Bare poles as the Genoa would have been shredded if I left it up,
The boat was spinning around 90 degrees and quite frequently 180 degrees,
Nothing I could do about it, I was in it, Lock to lock on the steering to keep it straight,
Just hope my boat was up to the task to get me home, At 6 knots on the GPS,
But it did prove to me how seaworthy my boat is,

If you spend most of your time sailing in those conditions, I'd suggest you spend some time learning to read weather forecasts.

Having said that, we spent a few days in the coral sea with wind 35+kts, peaked at 48kts, forward of the beam, seas 3-5metres, and we could still put a coffee cup down without it spilling.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

If you spend most of your time sailing in those conditions, I'd suggest you spend some time learning to read weather forecasts.

Having said that, we spent a few days in the coral sea with wind 35+kts, peaked at 48kts, forward of the beam, seas 3-5metres, and we could still put a coffee cup down without it spilling.

I crossed the Coral Sea in similar conditions to yours,
My Cat was flat and level all the time,
My coffee cup sat where I put it,
It was force 6 at 10-00 AM from a passing ship,
It was a lot worse in the afternoon, I was down to a foot of Genoa, and doing 10 knots, I like to keep the speed down,

I was an hour out of the RIP in Bass Straight when I got the bad weather report, About 9-00 PM
I wasnt going back thru the RIP with forecast winds in excess of 35 knots,
Marine weather warnings,
Yes I know, you would have,

Safest for me was to go back thru the Western Port Bay heads,
Which I did at 2-30 AM, full out going tide,
It was quite a violent ocean out there by that time,
And every thing was on the floor,

Hand steering lock to lock, Getting a coffee was totally out of the question, Hahahahahahaha
And no, It wouldnt stay where I put it,
It reminded me of being on a Yacht, Every thing sideways, hahahaha

But I could have done what you do, Anchor in 200 feet of water, Grab a taxi and go home and come back for the boat when the wind died down,

As a FWIW, The forecast for the next 3 days was light winds and calm seas,

I have no delusions about Bass Straight, I did ship repair for many years on the Melbourne docks, ,
Ships coming in with steel decks destroyed from huge waves smashing them to pieces,
The Princess of Tasmania with windows on the tenth floor smashed out,
There is a few good videos of ships coming thru the RIP in bad weather,
One in particular, The Princess coming thru the RIP, The Vomit box, Hahahaha

You think Im going to bring my boat thru there in bad weather, Hahahahaha
Not bloody likely,

[NevilleCat]

You went into Westernport with a full outgoing tide against what I presume was a big Southerly or Souwesterly?
I would have been too chicken to do that. Would rather stayed out to sea than face the potential surf break that would have been kicked up then I think. I don't wonder you were doing 360's! Too scary for me!

[mark_morwood]

[QUOTE=Astroman;3077016]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I guess I don't want to be stuck at 5-7 knots on long passages. Goal is comfortably sail in light wind. At 15 knots could you get 8-10 knot? Shaving a week from Panama to Marquesas is $$ in fuel, food, comfort.

These are two or three different aspects of performance:
- ability to keep sailing in light winds (for us this was really important)
- reasonable average speed (important)
- top speed (not important for us)

As background we had a Catana 48, so smaller than you are looking for, and in our case a little over weight, but with a performance main, jib, code 0 and asymmetric.

In light winds 5 to 10 knots we could still sail at 4 to 8 knots, obviously depending on wind direction, but that was largely about having the right sails and being prepared to use them. It's interesting to note that this sort of performance is usually not scary for the crew.

Our top speed ever was around 17 knots running down wind in waves but that was not in the realm of sustainable for us. In realistic good conditions we would sail between 8 and 10, once again depending on wind direction and sea-state. Pushing this part of the performance curve rapidly makes it less comfortable and more stressful for the crew.

This meant for long passages we generally averaged around 180 miles a day (e.g. Canaries to Martinique, Galapagos to Marquesas, both were 15 day passages for us). We were always aiming for 200 mile days, but they only happened every now and then, though we did a bunch of them on the way to the Marquesas.

So my suggestion would be to evaluate boats on how easily they sail in light wind, more than what is their top speed. If it can sail OK in light wind, then in average conditions it's also likely to be what I would consider fine, but everyone has different requirements. On the other hand, if you don't mind running the engines, it is probably no more expensive given the relative cost of sails and diesel, and almost as fast to just motor through light airs.

[tomfl]

[QUOTE=mark_morwood;3079513]

Originally Posted by Astroman

SNIP

So my suggestion would be to evaluate boats on how easily they sail in light wind, more than what is their top speed. If it can sail OK in light wind, then in average conditions it's also likely to be what I would consider fine, but everyone has different requirements. On the other hand, if you don't mind running the engines, it is probably no more expensive given the relative cost of sails and diesel, and almost as fast to just motor through light airs.

Good point about light air sailing. Not sure I agree about motoring cost compared to replacing sails. My experience has been sails wear out more from what I call abuse than using them to sail. One of the worst things for a sail is luffing; something many folks often ignore. Of course things like a sail getting blown out in a gust is a sail killer. A lot of what I call trade wind sailing will be down wind and an unplanned jibe can also do lots of damage to both sails and rigging.

As a disclaimer my Seawind has 9.9 Yamahas so motoring for any real distance is simply a no go.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Astroman

I don't know if I really want to mess with Daggerboards on the Seawind (do they break away without ripping a hole in the hull?). I also don't love the opening of the hardtop over the cockpit that attaches to the Saloon (i guess you just put the rain protection in a storm). enclosed helm would be nice too.... ( I guess we can pick apart every boat).

If you dont want dagger boards, then clearly performance is the bottom of the tree in your search

[Factor]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

So my suggestion would be to evaluate boats on how easily they sail in light wind, more than what is their top speed. If it can sail OK in light wind, then in average conditions it's also likely to be what I would consider fine, s.

THIS This is very much what performance is about

[mark_morwood]

[QUOTE=tomfl;3079538]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

Good point about light air sailing. Not sure I agree about motoring cost compared to replacing sails.

It wasn't until I saw someone do an analysis on the numbers that I realised that it was probably true. Here's a rough calculation with a couple of assumptions:
- 1 liter per nautical mile (out boat was closer to 0.5l/mile)
- $1 USD per liter (this might be low now)
our $7000 code zero would have funded enough diesel for a lot of motoring, even if fuel was say 1/3 of the cost of running the engine.

Having said that, I don't really care as I like to sail!