Buying new in France or buying used in the Caribbean?

[SV Bacchus]

My wife and I have been having this debate for the past year. We are retired but have a rambunctious, full of life, 10 year old child (late in life but perfect in every way and is keeping us young!) and want to move aboard and show the kid the world while giving him an education you simply can't buy.

That being said we have a budget around $200K, live in Florida and have many cats to look at in the 38' to 42' range that fit the budget. We know what most posters with experience say about entrance costs + refit costs to gobble up the $200K. The $200K doesn't eat at the kitty as we have fairly nice retirement checks coming in. In fact, the proper boat, properly refitted, will be cheaper than the house we are maintaining now.

When we started looking at refitting and what it would cost I asked the Admiral "what about sucking up, deal with some financing and just buying new?"

Now, here comes the question and I think it doesn't have a real answer or one easily answered..

We follow a nice young couple on YouTube, Chase the Story Sailing, who ordered a brand new FP Helia and took delivery last year - about the time we started looking.

1. When taking delivery they asked the salesman/factory rep "Where is the freezer?" He replied that they never ordered one. They asked "Who buys a boat for circumnavigation and doesn't get a freezer?" He again said they never ordered one. They asked "Why didn't you point that out?" He said not his responsibility..

2. It was delivered with a non-functioning ice maker.

3. It was delivered with a non-functioning or intermittent at best auto-pilot.

Fast forward a year, last episode this past week in fact, and the auto-pilot is still giving them fits and there is a hole in cabinet where the ice maker belongs. The male half of the pair said it broke and couldn't be fixed.

It is a beautiful boat, seems to sail nice and they, overall, are happy with it.

Is this normal? Do most new deliveries have these kinds of issues?

It really made a strong argument to us to save the big bucks and look for what fits our needs and do the refit the way we want.

[henryv]

You do have to take the time to understand what comes standard and what items you need off the option list when ordering a new boat. Do not expect the sales person to read your mind or anticipate your needs.

New boats can have issues but with reputable builders most issues will relate to glitches with electronics, wiring, or fittings. The issues can be frustrating but should not have a significant impact on your pocket book.

With older boats you will encounter more expenses for replacements and repairs. The salt water world is particularily hard on electrical systems and equipment but replacements should not break the bank. Engine hours and condition are important considerations as this is where the big money can get spent.


Sent from my SM-P900 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

It is a beautiful boat, seems to sail nice and they, overall, are happy with it.

Is this normal? Do most new deliveries have these kinds of issues?

It really made a strong argument to us to save the big bucks and look for what fits our needs and do the refit the way we want.

if every new boat would have this kind of trouble.... almost every new-boat buyer would be very very happy.

Just google "fountaine pajot osmosis", similar stories exist for other builders.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

.............
We follow a nice young couple on YouTube, Chase the Story Sailing, who ordered a brand new FP Helia and took delivery last year - about the time we started looking.

1. When taking delivery they asked the salesman/factory rep "Where is the freezer?" He replied that they never ordered one. They asked "Who buys a boat for circumnavigation and doesn't get a freezer?" He again said they never ordered one. They asked "Why didn't you point that out?" He said not his responsibility..

2. It was delivered with a non-functioning ice maker.

3. It was delivered with a non-functioning or intermittent at best auto-pilot.

Fast forward a year, last episode this past week in fact, and the auto-pilot is still giving them fits and there is a hole in cabinet where the ice maker belongs. The male half of the pair said it broke and couldn't be fixed.

It is a beautiful boat, seems to sail nice and they, overall, are happy with it.

Is this normal? Do most new deliveries have these kinds of issues?

It really made a strong argument to us to save the big bucks and look for what fits our needs and do the refit the way we want.

All too frequent with some dealers and some builders. But NOT normal for all builders, that is an outrageous story. If you buy new, check whether your dealer owns one of the product, thats a good start to getting the right information, there is one dealer in Australia whose agents all own the product. There are others who have never sailed out of sight on a dark night

[monte]

Bacchus, yes delivery quirks are pretty normal across the board with all boats. Sorting them out can be a bit of a pain, especially if you are on a restricted timeline. Ideally you want to allow enough time (about a month) to stay close to the delivery dealers dock and sort out any issues then and there, and also try pick a dealer with a good follow up and service reputation, some are better than others. French have very different customer service values to the rest of the world. Ordering sans freezer is pretty normal, we've done it twice. The small freezer in the standard fridge is more than adequate for a couple. Ice makers are pretty prone to not working from what I see. Maybe a benchtop model is better/cheaper/easier to replace. We don't have one. A faulty AP would be a pain in the ass and should have been fixed, but usually that ends up on the supplier, rather than the builder. It's probably Raymarine who's customer service is pretty sloppy from my experience. They would more than likely recommend buying a new one..
When you buy a new boat, the warranties are not all from the builder. You have a mass of individual warranties to sort through, such as yanmar, exide, Raymarine, etc etc. Usually a good builder and dealer will help but in the end it's often you against them, and often the builders change suppliers because of poor warranty service from the individual suppliers.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't rely on warranty from any builder or component, any more than I would when buying used. Any warranty support is a bonus.
As far as borrowing for a better boat...id strongly advise against it and stick to your budget. There's some decent 40' used cats well below your budget with room for upgrades and repairs included.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by monte

Bacchus, yes delivery quirks are pretty normal across the board with all boats. Sorting them out can be a bit of a pain, especially if you are on a restricted timeline. Ideally you want to allow enough time (about a month) to stay close to the delivery dealers dock and sort out any issues then and there, and also try pick a dealer with a good follow up and service reputation, some are better than others. French have very different customer service values to the rest of the world. Ordering sans freezer is pretty normal, we've done it twice. The small freezer in the standard fridge is more than adequate for a couple. Ice makers are pretty prone to not working from what I see. Maybe a benchtop model is better/cheaper/easier to replace. We don't have one. A faulty AP would be a pain in the ass and should have been fixed, but usually that ends up on the supplier, rather than the builder. It's probably Raymarine who's customer service is pretty sloppy from my experience. They would more than likely recommend buying a new one..
When you buy a new boat, the warranties are not all from the builder. You have a mass of individual warranties to sort through, such as yanmar, exide, Raymarine, etc etc. Usually a good builder and dealer will help but in the end it's often you against them, and often the builders change suppliers because of poor warranty service from the individual suppliers.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't rely on warranty from any builder or component, any more than I would when buying used. Any warranty support is a bonus.
As far as borrowing for a better boat...id strongly advise against it and stick to your budget. There's some decent 40' used cats well below your budget with room for upgrades and repairs included.

Plus A1...
Boats are a crap investment to tie up money you cannot afford in.. and that's before loans interest comes into play..

[AD28]

I'd never buy a new car, and damn sure not a new boat. Let someone else eat the depreciation...

[ObiWanSand]

Dear everyone!

It does indeed look like it will be buying new in France, things are coming together and we just may be signing the deal next week on hull #131. That would be the lovely (in our opinion...) Lagoon 42.

We will not pop the bottle of "sprudel wasser" just yet, as things have been known to go bust at the last minute, but as the saying goes; 'So far so good

I was wondering if anyone can share what their annual insurance premiums are on a cat similar to the L42. Also would be interested in hearing what company and how satisfied you are with their services.

Just tweaking the cruising budget spreadsheet.

Brgds

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by ObiWanSand

I was wondering if anyone can share what their annual insurance premiums are on a cat similar to the L42. Also would be interested in hearing what company and how satisfied you are with their services.

Bavaria / Germany: We pay 0,6% of the current value for hull insurance, but that is for cruising the Med only.

Plus 70 Euro for a few millions third party liability.

[ObiWanSand]

Thank you, Rabbi

Anyone else have anything to share as far as annual insurance fees are concerned.

Much appreciated if you do!

Brgds

[Cheeky Monkey]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

Is this normal? Do most new deliveries have these kinds of issues?

It really made a strong argument to us to save the big bucks and look for what fits our needs and do the refit the way we want.

Hey there! I'm so glad you responded on my post and linked me over here -- I did not see this when it went up.

Truth be told, we WANTED to buy a used Helia for all the reasons you listed -- you let someone else take the depreciation hit, you get a boat that's been tested in the waters presumably and had time to show (especially in a survey) what defects there are, and you don't have the hassle of having to research and oversee the installation of every single little item you have on the boat. You get a boat with some stuff you want and some stuff maybe you want to change, and you focus your refit on changing those items that are important to you. Plus we didn't want to wait a year or 18 months to actually step onto our new boat -- we wanted it NOW.

But when the Euro hit an all-time low last year, it suddenly became cheaper to buy a brand-new Helia from France than it was to buy one of the used Helias sitting in the Caribbean, which were priced in dollars and not coming down because the owners didn't want to take the financial hit. Plus, a spot opened up when someone bailed out of their purchase, meaning we could put our deposit down in April and have our brand-new boat in July for a few hundred thousand cheaper than if bought used.

So all signs pointed to buying new. But we were trying really hard to buy a used boat. And, yes, I've commiserated with many a new boat owner about how hard it is to get good work done in the marine industry -- we met a Lagoon owner in Nanny Cay who was having a nightmare of a time with things going wrong on their new boat. It got so bad that Lagoon flew a personal representative out from France to the Caribbean to help organize all the warranty repairs that needed to be done. It sounded like he had a worse time than we did.

Thanks so much for reading along and following our adventures -- I wish you the best of luck in finding the perfect boat for you. I know there is no absolutely perfect boat, but there are lots of almost-perfect boats :-)

Tasha

[rabbi]

The "SV Bacchus" punch list sounds like you are very lucky with the boat.

Missed freezer option? Sorry, but grown up should read the paperwork.

A defunct icemaker? Annoyance but certainly not a big thing. A small itch to scratch

The Autopilot needs to be 100% reliable, no questions.
A buyer doing local cruises would just ask his dealer to fix it.
Anyone contemplating a long distance cruise should better be self sufficient enough to fix all kinds of issues, at least with the help of the internet and DHL. Ever tried to find a Raymarine specialist in Dakhla / Western Sahara? Or worse, in the middle of the Atlantic?

[ObiWanSand]

Dear Tasha and crew !

I am sure your greeting was probably meant for Bacchus, but I choose to address it to yours truly as well

We are at a delicate time in our process that will hopefully see us following in your excact footsteps (at least for a while...) next year. So it was a welcome boost to our morale to watch your human, highly enjoyable, positive videos... I felt it almost like a gift from the universe that it arrived in this post just today

It is inspiring to see you chasing the story around this lovely planet, and we will use it to stay firm in our commitment to sail around the globe with our family!

Thank you very much indeed

Sincerely

Oddvar

[Cheeky Monkey]

Originally Posted by ObiWanSand

Dear Tasha and crew !

I am sure your greeting was probably meant for Bacchus, but I choose to address it to yours truly as well

We are at a delicate time in our process that will hopefully see us following in your excact footsteps (at least for a while...) next year. So it was a welcome boost to our morale to watch your human, highly enjoyable, positive videos... I felt it almost like a gift from the universe that it arrived in this post just today

It is inspiring to see you chasing the story around this lovely planet, and we will use it to stay firm in our commitment to sail around the globe with our family!

Thank you very much indeed

Well hello! Thanks so much for this personal note! I like perusing Cruiser's Forum when I have WiFi as there's so much useful info here, but sadly I've struggled on such slow WiFi through the Caribbean that I've not been able to peruse anything...it's heartbreaking enough to try to upload an 8-minute YouTube video to get the notification that it will be done uploading in 15,000 minutes! Gah!

So now that I'm in Panama, I am literally SOAKING up everything the internet has to offer...I'm like a rural American at an Old Country Buffet.

Thanks so much for the compliments on the videos! It's lifted my spirits as right now I am currently smashing my head against my computer trying to edit a video of the BVIs, one of the world's most desirable cruising grounds, while having lost half our footage and discovering that half the remaining footage had screwed-up audio because of a wind muff we tried out on our point and shoot. It kills me when that happens because I want to interject and talk to the camera and tell the audience how many awesome things we shot during our stay, which I can't show because....AUGH!

Such is life -- we enjoy documenting our adventures and I am overjoyed and thrilled when it's enjoyed. So THANK YOU for your kind words of support. I hope we will see you out there on the water one day. It's always a good time when we make new cruising friends :-)

-Tasha (& the Cheeky Monkey crew)

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

1. When taking delivery they asked the salesman/factory rep "Where is the freezer?" He replied that they never ordered one. They asked "Who buys a boat for circumnavigation and doesn't get a freezer?"

Quite a lot of people buy boats without freezers, and take them around the world. People even take boats without fridges around the world.
And most boats are sold not to people that sail them around the world, but that sail them from restaurant to restaurant. That means that you do indeed have to read the option list.

2. It was delivered with a non-functioning ice maker.

Ice makers are not common in this part of the world. Houses rarely have them for example. So most Frenchmen don't know what a functioning icemaker looks like...