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Old 10-10-2022, 10:53   #106
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

Then do not purchase. The Seatrial should be the first Contingency that needs to be satisfied from their invest in a rig inspection and mechanical inspection of the engine and generator. The last inspection should be the hull survey were all systems are checked and the hull is tapped for integrity. Proceeding in this fashion allows use the buyer to control the acquisition process. If you do not like how the boat sails, walk prior to spending funds on additional surveys. Both the rig inspection, and the mechanical surveys can reveal costly repairs. The rig service will be the least expensive inspection, the second least expensive will be the mechanical, and the hull survey the most expensive. Strongest recommendation would be to contact to see Toronto nothing else is scheduled so that focuses solely on how the boat sails. Verses having technicians and the boatyard expecting you and expecting to be compensated for their time. Selling brokers love to line everything up on the same day or at a minimum have you conduct the sea trial on the way to the yard for survey, And then worry about the rig and mechanical inspection. This process it only to the seller and broker benefit. Not the buyers. Hope this is helpful, John
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Old 10-10-2022, 11:15   #107
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

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Originally Posted by katamarankris View Post
Ah. I should have mentioned that I actually prefer to purchase in France immediately but the seller is only willing to deliver to Caribbean in several months.

The boat is not currently available to view, with the earliest viewing possible in November.

Am I still being unreasonable in your opinion?
It sounds like the seller wants to sail across the ocean as a farewell. You might want to test the waters and offer to buy the boat in France and have the boat delivered under your control. I’m other words you pay to have it delivered and you choose the delivery crew.

If the answer is no here’s your simple liability. The boat has issues and you inherent those undisclosed issues.
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Old 10-10-2022, 11:31   #108
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

NO! Just say NO DEAL. your buying a pig in a poke!
If your spending big money on this Cat -go see it!! If they won't let you see it and inspect it before sailing the seven seas Id say see you all later!!
Your jumping into dirty water with no bottom in sight from where Im sitting.

There are OTHER CATS for sale that sail
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Old 10-10-2022, 12:33   #109
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

What you are asking are not unusual things, it's even the common sense. But they just don't care, making no effort...
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Old 10-10-2022, 12:36   #110
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

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To me the sea trial is just a box to check. Exactly what do you expect to uncover that didn't show up in the survey?

My boat had a slider fail and the log didn't work in the sea trial. The slider I think would have been harder to find without sailing. The log could have been easily uncovered by reversing in the slip to send some current over it.

Is a short sail, 1 or 2 hours really that revealing of defects that are show stoppers? I think that you shoulda caught it before wasting time sailing if it is a show stopper. To me, the sea trial just gives you that last bit of certainty; things found at that stage should be negotiated for price/repair.
So I didn't do a survey of my $2,700 Catalina 25 or my $9,000 14' Boston Whaler although I did insist on sea trials for each. We bought those boats cheap and were willing to take a chance because of that. When I got into larger boats we always surveyed.


Lets see. What did we uncover and learned our last survey for our current boat..?

I found an overheating engine that required a lot of work (and would have cost us $$). We also learned that she sailed great, the sails were in good shape, the tender platform worked, the tender worked, that one of the water-cooled fridges didn't ($), that some of the running rigging needed to but was mostly good, that she didn't leak and was bone dry, the blackwater pumpouts worked, the generator worked, the watermaker worked, the chartplotters worked properly and tracked our position, the satellite phone didn't work, one AC chiller didn't work ($), that the liferaft needed recertification, one head didn't work, that she didn't have osmosis but had some bottom paint issues ($), that her electrical systems were compliant, that the shore connection worked, etc.

I could go on forever. It's not just what doesn't work but also shows you the things that do. There were still things that the surveyor missed but we knew we had a solid boat and identified some issues the seller had to cover. :-)
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Old 10-10-2022, 12:49   #111
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

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I am a broker and I am horrified by this. TOTALLY unacceptable. Get hold of his boss. Report the company to whatever association they belong to. Name and Shame them. You need to do a survey after it's last charter and have wording in the contract( as we do) that the vessel is NOT to be used after survey except to move it to a place of repair or safety.
Otherwise jsut walk away. Buying a cat remotely without even seeing it is juat ASKING for trouble. I would never let anyone using me as a buyers broker do that.
True words. Well put. Just the type of broker one wishes should exist. Somewhere. In France, I have never ever met a broker even remotely approaching your business ethics. One can only hope the OP by now has gotten to his senses.
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:16   #112
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

There is no process called defrancisation

There are three scranarios

Firstly French leisure vessels must be registered if owned by a French resident

(A) if the buyer is a French resident then the broker informs the French registry and a name change is possible. This is simple

(B) the buyer is a EU tax resident. The broker provides a bill of sale , proof of vat paid ( usually an original sales invoice ) and then owner on completion signs the deflagging order. The French registry deletes the registry entry and sends “ a closing transcript ) to a new owner.

(c) the buyer is non EU and is exporting the vessel outside the EU

In this case all of (b) occurs but also the French customs ( douane) must issue paperwork to certify the yacht is being exported. Many brokers use a customs agent for this. This can take a big of time.

Note that French purchase and sale contracts regularly have sea Trials as a condition of sale

However unlike the stock U.K. contract the French survey and sea trial will not allow the buyer to walk away arbitrarily It contains a form of “ dont penny pinch “ ie the survey must find material defects not already declared in the sale

Hence in your case. Insist on a sea trial in France. Complete the sake. Delivery is then your dime

For a longer description here’s a useful document from a French broker

https://www.antipode-yachts.com/uplo...yers_Guide.pdf

Note I bought and sold two boats in France.
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:18   #113
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

I have nothing nice to say about Broker’s , I recently bought an aluminum trawler , I won’t bore you with The lies that were told they were Many , only reason I use this Broker , I couldn’t figure out how to contact the owner I had no choice , If I were you I would try to figure out who the owner of the boat is , being chartered that might be an Option for you whatever it takes get a hold of the owner I know i will offend some however If their lips are moving they’re probably lying do whatever you can to find the owner
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:28   #114
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

Absolutely not and, if it would help, I'd be happy to call him on your behalf. I am in France, not too far from La Rochelle. His suggestions merit the traditional French bras d'honneur ".
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:28   #115
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Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

A broker cannot and doesn’t dictate the terms of a sale. You as the buyer can have any terms you want. All you have to do is get the seller to agree. Agree or you walk.

It’s not difficult.

My experience of French brokers has been very good. The one in Antibbes was excellent
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:32   #116
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

Absolutely not. I would be happy to call him on your behalf. I am in France, not very far from La Rochelle. His suggestion merits the traditional French Bras d'Honneur.
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:41   #117
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

Is the TransAt part of the current owner's winter plans for the catamaran, or as a sale agreement? If owner was going to move boat to Caribbean, the holds off until it arrives in the Caribe. Then do a survey/seatrial after arrival. Any issues with the boat will be evident (and there will be) at that time.
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Old 10-10-2022, 13:48   #118
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby tug View Post
I have nothing nice to say about Broker’s , I recently bought an aluminum trawler , I won’t bore you with The lies that were told they were Many , only reason I use this Broker , I couldn’t figure out how to contact the owner I had no choice , If I were you I would try to figure out who the owner of the boat is , being chartered that might be an Option for you whatever it takes get a hold of the owner I know i will offend some however If their lips are moving they’re probably lying do whatever you can to find the owner
In the marine trade the adage goes like this:

The seller is a liar
The buyer a cheat
and the broker is a whore
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Old 10-10-2022, 14:01   #119
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

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Originally Posted by aeronautic1 View Post
Is the TransAt part of the current owner's winter plans for the catamaran, or as a sale agreement? If owner was going to move boat to Caribbean, the holds off until it arrives in the Caribe. Then do a survey/seatrial after arrival. Any issues with the boat will be evident (and there will be) at that time.


No seller is going to deliver a boat across an ocean on the basis the sale could fail

The whole idea is nonsense. Buy the boat in France ( or don’t ) and deliver it yourself.
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Old 10-10-2022, 16:26   #120
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Re: Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

I think you are being quite reasonable, also, many things can brake during an Atlantic crossing. We purchased our sailboat in grenada Caribbean and still here sailing it can take days or weeks to get a survey done and receive report which your insurer will probably want. Also you'll need to do sea trial, haul out for full survey and this can take weeks. There are lots of nice sailboats for sale here in the grenada and easy to get to if your flying from the states . Take a holiday and shop around. It's a big decision andc working with a good broker is important. good luck
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