Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by katamarankris

Sea trial post delivery is added to the contract now, and I bought the boat (paid a deposit). I still don’t love the contract language, but I’m choosing to trust the brokerage to some extent.

Thanks everyone for your input.

I’ll post an update in a few months about whether this worked out, or was the dumbest boat purchase in history.

I hope it all works out. I think the story of this thread really is "don't fall in love with a boat when buying beyond what you are willing to walk away from"

[Sailing August]

Tell him to pack sand.
If it doesn't feel right.....Don't do it.
There are other boats out there.
Boat brokerage is a shady business........follow your nose

[GrowleyMonster]

Never fall in love with a boat until it is yours and you are stuck with it, anyway. Fortunes have been lost.

If the broker is threatening you with other buyers, that's a bad sign. Why hasn't he sold to one of those other buyers? I think he is blowing smoke up your ass. Just my semi educated guess.

There WILL be other boats. Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

The terms of the sale are set by seller AND buyer, or their agents. (brokers) and no sale is possible without buyer and seller agreeing on terms. If you go through with the purchase, you are agreeing to a particular set of terms and a particular price. If the seller goes through with the sale, he is also agreeing to a particular set of terms and a particular price. Which party dreamed up those terms and which party demanded this or that change to them, is irrelevant. If you don't like the setup, back out. Leave an offer on the table, that includes the terms you really feel like you need in the deal, and keep looking for your dream boat elsewhere. If they cave in and give you what you want, perfect. If you find the boat you want being offerred with more favorable terms, perfect. If that happens and the broker who is giving you grief comes back and says, okay, okay, I give you waht you want, and you tell him sorry, you found a better deal so no thank you, even more perfect.

It's not such a bad thing, to be between boats. It's actually very liberating, in a way. You can always go sailing with someone else, or charter, if you have the papers for it. No slip rent or mooring fees. No upkeep. No taxes. No insurance. Enjoy it while you can.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailing August

Tell him to pack sand.

If it doesn't feel right.....Don't do it.

There are other boats out there.

Boat brokerage is a shady business........follow your nose

The last line being widely over generalising of course.

[mbullock]

I have bought ten sailboats, all through UK based brokers. Sea trial and Survey are perfectly normal. If you find any defect through that process you can pull out and have deposit returned. A 10% deposit subject to any trial and survey is normal in the UK. I know that each country has it's own contracts and rules.

If I were you, I would present them with the contract I would like to use. Providing its reasonable why wouldn't they? OR have your clauses firmly, hand written and initialled, written into their contract.

They want you to buy a catermaran that has yet to cross the Atlantic. Good luck! I would just tell them your terms or walk. There are a lot of boats out there and any catermaran is going to cost you a chunk of change.

regards, Malc

Originally Posted by katamarankris

I'm currently trying to purchase a catamaran, located in France, which does not become available for handover for a few months.

It's going to be delivered to me in the Caribbean via sailing it across the Atlantic before the handover to me.

I am working with my local broker to help guide me through the purchase process with the foreign French broker.

I'm stuck on two things and was wondering if anyone has experienced this before:

1. The broker won't allow me to conduct a sea trial as a condition of purchase in the pre-purchase agreement.
   
2. The broker won't allow for 2 weeks that I requested to conduct survey and sea trial. He only wants to give me I think 4 days for a survey. And no sea trial. I'm not sure it's enough time for me to survey in the Caribbean because planning a surveyor to look at the boat there might have a delay.

I have given him my ID and proof of residence etc, and am ready to send a deposit, but he now seems offended and is threatening to sell the boat to another customer if I don't sign his agreement as given.

I haven't purchased a boat internationally before. It's a reasonably large (~15 employee?) La Rochelle broker.

Am I asking for unusual things from the selling broker?

[lestersails]

If someone asked you if they could please take your boat for a transat sail and when they arrive, you can inspect the boat but only ask for redress if the damage meets a high and vague bar (not "seaworthy"), you would do that?
You need to adopt the attitude of a bareboat cruising charter company - the seller pays for the privilege of the cruise and you get to decide what damage charges they pay when the boat gets into your possession.

[CWayne]

I remember being in Horta, Azores when a French delivery captain was waiting to see what the owner wanted to do about a new Catamaran whose hulls and supports were starting to show cracks. He wanted to continue as this was his first delivery. A debate was ongoing about waiting for a surveyor as I departed. The Cat was being delivered to a waiting purchaser in the Caribbean.


My wife and I have made several boat purchases and surveyed them ourselves. This whole deal sounds odd. I wouldn't continue, I would cut my losses if any and look else where. If the purchase doesn't feel right it probably isn't.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by osprey877

The problem with asking for a sea trial after delivery is that it is a totally subjective test and basically allows you to cancel the deal for any or no reason. The seller is naturally not keen to agree to such a condition months after he thinks he has sold it. Why don’t you have a comprehensive survey done now in France, including engine inspection, rigging, sea trial etc. either by you or someone you trust, and then stipulate in the contract that the vessel when delivered in the caribe must be in substantially the same condition and state of repair as it was when surveyed in France. This is an objective standard and the seller should not have any problem agreeing to it.

If the seller was handing the boat over in the next few days with no major crossing involved, you would be correct.

But the seller is the one demanding that the sale not be completed with handover right now, so the seller bears the risk related to the delay. I would certainly want a survey after the ocean crossing so if there was damage, the surveyor has a chance to catch it.

[Stewie12]

To buy it without a sea trial would be crazy. Walk away.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

You bought a boat, and are letting the previous owner use it for months, even sailing across the Atlantic?

Just curious... if the boat losses its mast half way between Cape Verde and Martinique, who's problem is it? Who is paying insurance? Are you buying it in the condition is is TODAY, or in the condition it is in when it arrives in the islands?

It certainly to me seems like a deal that even with the best intentions from all parties could go very pear-shaped. Even if the broker and selling party are 100% honest (which is VERY likely) there is a lot that could go wrong.

Good luck with it. I hope it works for you.

I'm guessing that the OP simply wasn't using clear terminology. So far he has a 10% deposit down and an accepted offer. The deal isn't closed.

My assumption is the deal won't be closed until after arrival with survey/sea trail completed based on the OP's statements.

[Tomer]

I would try to see it in France- if it is not possible, I would walk away....

Another thought that comes to mind- if the broker is that aggressive- dont walk away- run forest, run! Get out of that deal- the broker behavor is critical for you, you will need him during and after the process, if you are not on best terms , just look for another boat from a different broker (I dont know any of the persons/company involved).

[Nic Homan]

The normal process in Europe is to arrange a visit to view the yacht. Once a price has been agreed then an out of water survey is carried out by a competent registered surveyor. If all goes to plan you buy the boat and then arrange for a third party to take the yacht to the caribbean

[PineyWoodsPete]

Sounds like it's been in charter and still not available to even view in France for another month or so - that or undergoing major repairs - and a 10% down contract signed, boat sight unseen. He's flying blinded by "trust", but with a full dose of smoke and mirrors coming from the broker...

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Pete7

So the owner has set his heart on one final blast across the Atlantic before dumping the boat on you and hope not too many things break. That or its being chartered selling berths on board to fund the cost of the journey. What happens if the mast falls down half way and you have paid a deposit?

If you don't buy it, does the boat still cross to the Caribbean? if so buy it when it arrives.


Pete

This is how I see it.

French guy wants to see Caribbean before selling the boat.

Then wants to wash his hands of it.

Here is my take.

International boat deals are a pain.

Then you get to pay taxes in several countries including a $20,000 import tax to bring it into the USA.

Owner doesn't want you to Inspect the boat in France because he is using it, (and probably last minute repairs).

Here is what I expect you'll see when the boat arrives after crossing.

Not many reefs to hit mid Atlantic, but.

1. Torn sails $7,000 to $15,000

2. Worn/damaged gooseneck ( several thousand)

3. Damaged rigging ($15,000)

4. Cabin wear & tear. (Variable).

5. Rudder tube damage (several cats I've seen had a manufacturing defect that put a strain on rudder shaft from misalignment. Caused premature wear, and failure. Not a hard fix, a haulout plus reglass rudder mounts, and redrill holes in correct place, and replace rudder bearings. About $5,000.

And of course, electronics, toilets, showers, pumps, sea cocks, hoses.

After a major crossing the boat will need major work, not to mention cleaning.

If the price was right, or no other suitable boat was on the market, I'd think about it, but not for a first time buyer.

You are in for a serious learning experience.

[rnanaples]

Reasonable people do reasonable things. Not allowing a Sea Trial is unreasonable and would make me think what is he hiding. Unless you want to delay the sea trial for a long period of time. If I wasn't hiding I would say get over in 2 weeks to sea trial or I am selling to someone else.