Broker refuses to put sea trial as purchase condition

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

......which he got. Per Post #69, sounds like OP now has only his deposit at-risk. I'm guessing this story has another chapter or two.....

Yes, I certainly hope the OP changed the language to remove the silly vague "seaworthy" and you have to accept it statement. Otherwise, I foresee much angst when the OP finds something he doesn't like and the seller claims, it just crossed an ocean so it is obviously seaworthy.

[OneBoatman]

I'd place relatively little importance in demanding a sea trial on large cat that just crossed the pond. If it were allowed, what is in your mind that would or could break the deal? Have you checked her out in person? It sounds like you are destined to end up in in p_ssing contest over items identified in the survey anyway. You must determine first if the broker is trustworthy, you don't want to find yourself litigating anything anywhere but particularly in a country foreign to you. You must decide ahead of time where each of your off ramps in the deal are and ultimately if the boat has good bones. Answer for yourself why is it the right boat? Is there something special about it other than the price? Very few boats cross the pond without needing some love. You need to cover the bases, do you have a buyers broker? Can you pay a captain to join their delivery crew which would allow you to gain an honest opinion if its for you?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

I'd place relatively little importance in demanding a sea trial on large cat that just crossed the pond.

I think folks in this thread are over-focused on seaworthiness. Yachts have been abandoned in bad weather and found floating months later - an argument can be made the found-boat is seaworthy. A lengthy passage will have a laundry-list of repairs when it arrives - that's just the way passages with a few people living aboard a moving platform go. The list of small annoying items is endless - jack-in-the-box fridge or cabinet launches something onto woodwork with 20-coats of varnish. Latch on a microwave breaks rendering it unusuable - appliance is $200, but the carpentry to replace is much, much more. Winch handle gets dropped. Chafe-through of reefing lines. Winches need service. Masthead antenna or wind indicator breaks.

The OP signed a contract, so this is all water-under-the-bridge. Boat-lust and the crazy market right now likely motivated him to make concessions that will cause some sleepless nights as he waits for the boat to be delivered. In hindsight, what would have been fair is a survey prior to departure, and one upon arrival and a requirement the boat be in similar condition; plus a damage deposit by the seller to close any gap in condition between the two surveys.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

I'd place relatively little importance in demanding a sea trial on large cat that just crossed the pond. If it were allowed, what is in your mind that would or could break the deal? Have you checked her out in person? It sounds like you are destined to end up in in p_ssing contest over items identified in the survey anyway.

More often than not, it's not a "deal breaker" but items that need to be fixed by the seller or the price adjusted to account for them.

With the seller demanding to use it for an ocean crossing, this is even more important as many things that may have appeared fine during an initial review may have sustained damage during the crossing.

If you make the offer subject to survey & sea trail (after the crossing), there is no need for a p ssing contest. Either you come to an agreement or you walk away with your money.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Wow, what a horror show! Sort of makes you not want to buy a boat in France, huh?

No horror show as the information presented isn’t correct nor is the process any different to other European countries including the U.K.

There is no process called defranisation it’s no different to buying a part 1 registered boat in the U.K. or a boat in Greece. Vat must be regularised ,flag registration sorted and export status sorted.

In the U.K. brokers do not have exclusive rights either.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The OP said, he would prefer to buy in France but the seller is refusing as he wants to do a last crossing.



This is the seller being unreasonable if he is fighting the survey/sea trail after the crossing.

Of course the seller is being unreasonable. That’s nothing to do with the broker or France.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No horror show as the information presented isn’t correct nor is the process any different to other European countries including the U.K.

There is no process called defranisation it’s no different to buying a part 1 registered boat in the U.K. or a boat in Greece. Vat must be regularised ,flag registration sorted and export status sorted.

In the U.K. brokers do not have exclusive rights either.

What I would recommend the OP finding out is who's handling the deflagging/deregistration of the vessel from the French registry.
I bought a French registered boat in St Martin and the dereg took 3 months requiring all relevant documents being mailed to Brest and then returned by smail mail.. this was with the help of a local broker in Marigot.
This process caused me to wait till July before being able to make my Transat back to the UK.
Dunno how fast he wants to move the boat after handover but, this could definitely affect his plans.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What I would recommend the OP finding out is who's handling the deflagging/deregistration of the vessel from the French registry.
I bought a French registered boat in St Martin and the dereg took 3 months requiring all relevant documents being mailed to Brest and then returned by smail mail.. this was with the help of a local broker in Marigot.
This process caused me to wait till July before being able to make my Transat back to the UK.
Dunno how fast he wants to move the boat after handover but, this could definitely affect his plans.

Oh yes the French registry at times can be slow.

Anyone can deal with the registry. In practice it’s the selling broker.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by katamarankris

I'm currently trying to purchase a catamaran, located in France, which does not become available for handover for a few months.



It's going to be delivered to me in the Caribbean via sailing it across the Atlantic before the handover to me.



I am working with my local broker to help guide me through the purchase process with the foreign French broker.



I'm stuck on two things and was wondering if anyone has experienced this before:

1. The broker won't allow me to conduct a sea trial as a condition of purchase in the pre-purchase agreement.
   
   
   
2. The broker won't allow for 2 weeks that I requested to conduct survey and sea trial. He only wants to give me I think 4 days for a survey. And no sea trial. I'm not sure it's enough time for me to survey in the Caribbean because planning a surveyor to look at the boat there might have a delay.
   

I have given him my ID and proof of residence etc, and am ready to send a deposit, but he now seems offended and is threatening to sell the boat to another customer if I don't sign his agreement as given.



I haven't purchased a boat internationally before. It's a reasonably large (~15 employee?) La Rochelle broker.



Am I asking for unusual things from the selling broker?

Why not fly there and look at it yourself?
What does a 'sea trial' going to tell you?

[Juggerknot]

Originally Posted by katamarankris

I agree with those who say sellers can ask for anything they want. But my question (as someone buying his first cat, and a multi hundred thousand dollar purchase) is:
Is this normal? It seems like a reputable brokerage, yet buying a boat sight unseen especially at the price of a house is concerning.

The pre-purchase contract he sent me says I can get out of the deal if a survey at the place of delivery says the boat is “not seaworthy”.




If the mast falls down then I can get out of the deal because that would make it considered “not seaworthy” after the survey which is the only condition that lets me out of the deal.

I wonder what French law would consider “not seaworthy”. It seems that if the seller hits a reef but the boat still floats… I’m stuck?

If I don’t buy it now, then someone else may, and I lose the deal. The seller claims there are other interested buyers who he is threatening to sell to if I don’t move forward now.

Too many contingencies for my tastes. If the broker had buyers lining up the boat would be sold as you have not applied a deposit and his fiduciary responsibility is to the owner. My expertise is in U.S. law and unless you are well versed in French law, I'd walk away. Frankly, even if I were, I'd still walk away. There are plenty of vessels available and more will be coming online soon with the recession so hold fast and buy on your terms. Just my 2 cents.

[tkalfaoglu]

That sounds very shady.. I would run away from that purchase. There are plenty of other boats everywhere..

[goboatingnow]

Typically this not a French law issue as if you get to that stage you are lost anyway.

French purchase and sale agreements typically contain restrictions on backing out of the sale at survey or sea trial stage. Typically a form of words limits you to “ material “ issues. This is unlike the uk brokerage contract that’s widely used in Europe which has an unconditional walk away at survey and sea trial.

I’ve bought in France and always had a sea trial clause in the P&S agreement.

My suspecting is the owner is hiding something.

Buy it and the delivery is on your dime. Or walk away.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Of course the seller is being unreasonable. That’s nothing to do with the broker or France.

If the broker isn't trying to talk the seller into being more reasonable ....

YES THE BROKER IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Part of the fiduciary duty of the broker is to give the seller good advice and not trying to push the seller towards a more reasonable approach is violating that fiduciary duty.

We may only be hearing one side of the story but it comes across that the broker is pushing the contract terms.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If the broker isn't trying to talk the seller into being more reasonable ....



YES THE BROKER IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.



Part of the fiduciary duty of the broker is to give the seller good advice and not trying to push the seller towards a more reasonable approach is violating that fiduciary duty.



We may only be hearing one side of the story but it comes across that the broker is pushing the contract terms.

A broker faced with an implacable seller can only relay the sellers instructions. He can’t force the seller to sell. The situation the fiduciary duty is very varied as in many countries brining boats falls completely outside controlled financial activity. It’s no more legally onerous then selling a fridge.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Typically this not a French law issue as if you get to that stage you are lost anyway.

French purchase and sale agreements typically contain restrictions on backing out of the sale at survey or sea trial stage. Typically a form of words limits you to “ material “ issues. This is unlike the uk brokerage contract that’s widely used in Europe which has an unconditional walk away at survey and sea trial.

My suspecting is the owner is hiding something.

"Typical" went out the door when the seller decided to lock in the deal prior to doing a long ocean crossing. That's pretty far from a "typical" sales agreement, so changing the language to allow more liberal consideration of issues after the crossing by the buyer is quite reasonable.

Also, have you had experience with what is considered "material" in a legal sense in France? All 3 of the big boats, we've bought, there were items I could have reasonably claimed as "material" but I was comfortable moving forward after adjustments in price were made.

I think most of the idea that people can walk away for any reason is more practical than legal. It's simply not worth the legal battle for the seller/broker to try an lay claim to a $5-10k deposit when they may or may not win in court, so unless it's egregious, most just return the deposit and walk away because it's not worth the hassle.