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Old 10-06-2020, 13:11   #76
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Boat: Norman Cross 38' Ketch, Vancouver 25, Temptist International, Hobie 16
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

You are correct it will be a crap ton of work, and I am sure there will be a lot of new skills acquired, and maybe adventure along the way. Maybe it won't turn out, but as we move forward we will have learned a bunch, and hopefully get to enjoy her a little along the way. :-)

Cheers
James
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Old 10-06-2020, 18:17   #77
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Sand Crab brings up a good point.

During my build, I came across this old wood sloop, year, origin and type unknown. It had been purchased " as is" by a person from Romania or some place thereabouts, and whose sailing skills were clearly limited. For the most part, the boat sat up on blocks, looking lonely and forgotten. This chap would come by once in a while, say nothing to anybody, and piddle around for an hour or two and then disappear for months on end. For as long as I remember, nothing of note was ever done to it, and it eventually disappeared to some scrap heap, it's only value as monthly storage rent to someone.

This is a story I've seen repeated many times over and over. The dream captures many people. The thought of island breezes, naked wahines and plentiful lobsters can captivate a lot of people. A cheap fixer upper boat is made available and the dream goes into overdrive.

Whoever sold you this tri is thinking...." damn, can't believe I actually sold this thing to someone"....

I feel like a stuck record here. Have this tri hauled out, placed in a covered shed and give it a thorough going over. Bring someone with you, that has experience in these endeavors.

I've long admired your get up and go personality, as have others, skills with a variety of tools, and generally well thought out plan of attack and I'd like to see you succeed.

I've opined, as have others, in several postings the view that it is likely to be a 3 year project to eventual launch date.

I'm not alone in this opinion as you have clearly come to understand by now.

I'm not trying to dissuade you or otherwise change your mind.

I want you to succeed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Myself, and many other voices of experience have tossed our opinions at you regarding the likely effort it will take.

Slapping on a bandaid here and there is not the path to success here.

It is seriously, a time to stand back, and re-evaluate your hopeful goals here. This thread has plenty of people willing to guide you thru' various aspects of your planned re-building effort.

I won't post again, till I see some affirmative and constructive action taking place.

Good luck to you !!
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Old 10-06-2020, 18:35   #78
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

The problem with your statement "remove the amas" is that this is NOT easy to do on a trimaran with 'built-in' amas.
If yours was a Farrier foldable, like mine, then no problem.
The real trick is then fastening it all back together again, and doing so without reducing the original built-in strength, and without having to rip all the decks off and virtually start from scratch....

So in your case I'd go the 'float across the dam' mode, and avoid the whole 'cut it up so I can trailer it 4.5 miles'. Not worth the effort or the aggro and, in any case, would then need to be 'put back together' beside the boat ramp, not at your house/shop. Not really practical, is it?

If you haven't followed the thread about Wilson Lobau's Simpson tri that cost like US$25K to get to the water from it's owner's backyard in Peabody ME, you should google it and read. The only way that was even remotely cost-effective was that the family gave the boat for free to the first person who stumped up the money to shift it after the builder passed. Actually, that's not strictly true - should have said 'first person who looked like they had the runs on the board to get it sailing'. But it is now sailing! Although it was under a shed for 90% of it's life, so was in MUCH better condition than yours. Basically needed masts, sails and some paint. And was a 42' so a bit longer and wider. They had to cut down three mature trees that had grown to full height during the build. It's now called 'Wilsons Legacy' and is headed for the Caribbean I think.

Crane hire will cost a bomb. But specialist wide-load road movers (required by law pretty much everywhere) cost even more. So if you can haul it at a boat ramp straight onto a flatbed or beavertail, and then move it a short distance to the dam/lake, and maybe save one of potentially three crane hires, that would be good. (One; off the river onto a truck; two, off the truck into the lake; three, off the lake at your place). Probably a days work for a crane crew. It's not the weight of the boat that matters, it's how close they can get the actual truck to the lift, as the amount of weight capable of being lifted at full stretch of the arm is *significantly* less than if it's a straight lift off a truck to the ground right beside the truck. Might need a 20 ton crane or even larger, and those puppies take up some road space, are thin on the ground, and make wounded bulls look a kitten attacking a ball of wool. Might be $5K-10K just to get the boat home. Then same again to get it back to the water when it's finished. Get some quotes. Lie, at your palce, a big truck may not be able to get behoind the house, so would have to operate over the top of the house, at full stretch of the arm. Might need a 200 ton crane...??!!! You need to ask the experts. Get quotes.

Not trying to discourage, but it's a BIG job, and will require significant chunks of cash to get it home, and then build a shed over it so's you can rip off the deck and make big holes in it (without making the rain-water-rot situation any worse).

Despite what someone posted about not knowing the state of the hull, as it floats, and clearly the water in the bilges came in via the deck, I'd be fairly confident the hull is probably OK. If it's sat in salt water all its life that would make sense. Fresh water is the danger.

Might still be patches that need doing 'right thru', but you won't know for sure until you start attacking those rotted areas inside.

I'd suggest motoring it up river, then use the first crane to haul the masts - two birds one stone, makes moving it easier (no need to worry about trees o/head cables etc) and then just truck those home yourself.

Get it home, get it up on chocks, build the access staircase (i.e. not a ladder, you'll get very tired of that very quickly) and then worry about the shed.

Cheapest shed will probably be 1x4's bent into a curve, scarfed together to make longer lengths, and then with blocks between to stiffen, like a girder. You make one curve on ground, then add separating blocks, then curve next section and fix to blocks. Might need a steam box to get the curve without cracking or splitting. 2x4 blocks approximately 2' apart. Use square 4x4 or 2x6 posts to attach the base of the girders to, then 2x4 or 2x6 purlins lengthwise approximately 4' apart. girders wil need to be around 6' to 8' apart. If you are in a high wind or tornado risk area, consult a local engineer, as this spec is for a light wind load area.

Just work out the cutting list for that, to cover 40'x30' (you'll need room at the sides to allow for the inward curve, and to work in. Not cheap. But maybe able to recycle or resell/trade much of it at the end.

30 microgram (minimum) polyethylene sheeting for the roof. Get opaque, not clear, cuts down the glare and heat a bit and still leaves enough light to see by. But not black, unless you want your lighting bill to explode. lol

Do the costings. If it will add $30K to the purchase price just to get the boat home and back again once repaired, it might not be economical, and you might be better off getting out from under it now, before you sink all that capital into it.

Never mind three years worth of blood sweat and tears. And epoxy.

If the boat was virtually free, it might still be doable, but the boat won't be worth more than $50-60K once completed, as no-one these days buys wooden trimarans. The market is fibreglass catamarans. Or monos. Well, obviously not 'no-one'. You did. I did. But we fruit-loops are a breed apart, and you cannot guarantee being able to sell it later (especially if the BIG DReam implodes) and then someone else will be doing the 'crane hire is it worth it' calculations, and you may end up like Wilson's daughter having to give away a $50K boat just to get it shifted.

I admire your enthusiasm, but as the bills mount up, and the kids school fees, other interests etc mount up, unless you have a high paying job and can spend whatever you need whenever you need to, the project will stall and drag on. Hope the missus is in it for the long haul as well. If she's up for gettign her hands dirty, and be an active "partner" in the rebuild, I'd say you're in with a chance.

Just sayin'... Do your homework. Be certain it's do-able, and affordable. For you. Rest of us here can't make that call for you.
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Old 10-06-2020, 23:25   #79
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Interesting.... but simply, I will not give up before I have started..... I made my living doing stuff that NO-ONE else would touch. Complicated, difficult, impossible it didn't really matter. This may not end well, I have failed before, but I have learned more in failure, than I every did in university. Maybe, this is why I could nearly retired at 32. In fact, I was retired, until healthcare 8 years ago changed the game. It looks like weather permitting, Sunday or Monday will be the start of a long process. :-)

No one has answered, or I missed it. bottom up, or top down.. I tend to lean towards bottom up, Which means we will start with cockpit and work up from there. The Ama hull will have to wait, (I might route out rot and fill with epoxy filler as a band aid for now, but overall it will have to wait. I will then go to ama deck then cabin and so on. I will address the rudder and ama, when I try a few tactics I have ideas about.... If they work; many here might actually think I am a genius (I am not) but crazy boarders genius in many circles. I will not invest more that I can afford to loose...Money,time or Family wise. "If" I can get her up river or even need, too. I feel confident, I can get her out and de-masted without the use of any cranes. The getting her up river will be an adventure all in of it's self.

Sure, I could have bought, say a 52' Morgan for around 50k and dumped another 20k into her, but I would have had a boat that sailed for ****, and one my wife wouldn't live on.... ;-)

Perhaps many others come to mind, but unfortunately, the parameters laid down by those I love; were very little list, comfort on the hook,not likely to sink, (entirely) even if holed or flipped, and reasonable room for 6. I myself looked for something that sailed reasonably well. Gave me, and the misses some room for privacy at anchor, could be purchased for cash money, and most important could be repaired by ourselves, with supplies kept onhand. So, Plastic or wood epoxy. I actually, have been thinking for the last three years; I just needed to build my own. This actually was a better deal on that accord.

Currently, I have two masts and good rigging, cleats, cam locks, blocks, a johnson 15hp, winches x 4, running rigging "never used" , stantions,chain-plates, quadrant, wheel, auto pilot, 300 watts of solar, vhf, fenders, bow pulpit, furler, sails,electric water system, Aluminum rudder, 1" stainless drive shaft, shaft strut, two brass screws, hatches x 6, stainless ladder, booms, 150 gallons of tank-age, life lines, fans, charge controller, ac and dc breaker panels, two anchors + 300' of chain and rode ground tackle, AC, Sinks x 3, Stove (force 10),propane system, and two wheels all for $2k. Compared to building from the ground up,, I am WAY ahead of the game. Yes there will be work ahead, but if I can do most of it there, or get it here, the rest will be trivial hard work and engineering. I will spend the next 6 months trying like hell to make her right, within budget and family stuff. As pointed out, it will likely take longer, then I will try to get her here, and finish her out. It might be in a yard, then shove off. REMEMBER, we are backpackers by nature, amenities are not on our minds, we will be looking for function and safety, I actually wish I was messing with a Hans Christian 33 that I had in my grasp about 6 months ago, but alas, it didn't meet the criteria laid down by the family.. For that matter, if it were just me,, I would have kept the Compac 16, added lead weight, keel, rudder, and sprit. Then sailed that gal everywhere, and then some. :-) I looked at this boat for 3 long years, watched her slowly decline. I feel my biggest hurdle will be the stern rudder section, but then again who knows.. At any rate, we will be off the couch. the kids won't be playing video games or on phones; living in non reality, and we as a family will give it a go. If it doesn't work, so be it. If we loose money, who cares.. Can't take it with you anyway. We will have memories, whether they are at mooring in Gum bayou, on the trinity river, in Florida, or the Caribbean. That's what counts, and that is what is missed by so many these days.

I will finish with, I trust each and everyone of your advice. I believe this will take longer and cost more than hoped for. I am also not in this to make money, that would be fool hearty. This is a learning life lesson for me, and my family, that quite possibly could have a very rewarding outcome, maybe life changing outcome.

If the worst that can happen; is my kids learn that failure has value, then all of this would be a success.

We hope to see each one of you on the water in the future. :-)

Cheers,

James
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Old 11-06-2020, 10:57   #80
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

You actually are better off starting at the top and working down. You gotta keep the rain out! The first time it rained after I bought my boat I cried. Literally. Many members here have taken on big boat restoration projects, you might want to take a closer look at some of the advice given. Blind ambition can sometimes accomplish big things but you have no idea what you are getting into here. How about tackling a small soft spot on your topside somewhere just as a sample of what you are up against. The repairs need to be seamless and neat, you can't go adding weight to the boat with each repair. With so little invested, now would be a good time to back out, you could even turn a profit at this point. Save that epoxy that you bought for a smaller project. 6 months is the "tip of the iceberg" for this project. Just like building a house, if you don't have a clear cut plan to see the project through and the finances to do it, it makes no sense to begin.
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Old 11-06-2020, 14:29   #81
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead



New video up. Enjoy..
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Old 11-06-2020, 15:11   #82
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Anyone an idea of what building a fresh hull/ama/aka would cost for a C38? And duration of build? Be nice to know what a new build would take compared to refurbing a very tired boat?
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Old 11-06-2020, 18:12   #83
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

New build would be longer and more exxy.

I agree with Thumbs. Much better off starting at the top and making the cabin and deck waterproof first. But get the boat slipped and go over the hulls **thoroughly** before you take this one on.

Like I said before, my guess is the hulls are OK, but I'm in Australia, not walking around the boat with a small hammer, tapping at the hulls.

If it's only got that one bad spot on the inside of the hull already noted, good luck!

However I doubt you will get it out of the water at your lakeside home without a crane, and working on it in the water is not achievable. You will mess up the water and someone WILL call the EPA. Plus it's a PITA.

Get it into a shed then you can even work on it when it's raining out, at night, evenings, or in winter when it's cold and epoxy won't kick off without added heat. Simply close the shed in with plastic and use electric/oil column space heaters to warm the area you're working in.

Just BTW, how much was the entire boat, as found? If the fittings were $2K, what was the rest of the boat worth?
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Old 12-06-2020, 07:52   #84
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

So, interesting question, I paid net $2k for the boat "net" well not really even that, and all her belongings, attached or not, plus 7 months of free mooring to get through Hurricane season. What is she worth, I don't know, really. I really don't put much thought into what things are worth, until I am ready to sell them. At that point I devise a strategy to build worth in what ever project, and advertise project at a very fair market value. Most things I sell are technically undervalued, so, I move them really fast, but likewise I normally have nearly zero personal cash into a project... So, let's digest this thought...

I bought boat for 4k plus a very nice compac 16, that I have sailed all over this country. I sold a few items from the cross that were not needed, but had value for about 2k, head components, engine parts, screws had 4 kept 2, compass, microwave, frig.. anyway. The compac was given to me by a close friends widow about 10 years ago, (as a gift for getting her a buyer for the rest of her husbands estate) along with that came a lazer zuma, and a trailex aluminum trailer. (technically my first sailboats) Everything was there, and in usable shape. The Compac had sat so long the complete axles and frame of trailer was in the ground. (he had colon cancer for 3 years) Both boats where full of rain water. I replaced the Samson pole with some solid birch I had laying around, and replaced some interior ply that had rotten, replaced the running rigging. Total cost outlay $300.00 (Alivia Ann) gave us countless hours of joy on the great lakes, inland lakes, bays, icw, laguna madre, thousand islands, everglades, keys.. and I am sure there is more. The lazer, well it, just was a perfect dinghy sailing machine, did nothing to her, and sailed her weekly in my bay that you can see in the mac 25 video. Was perfect for learning sloop rigged vessels, and how to sail them. I am going to also include a 14 jon boat and Three 28' pontoons both free to me in the mix, and here we go. Sold the free lazer for $1500 cash +$350 for sailing lessons for a week, sold the trailx trailer for $450/ but received a galvanized trailer in trade, traded the Compac 16 + $4k for the Cross 38.... yet the old owner of the Cross is the guy that bought the trailer.... Took the new to me trailer,and put the free 14' jon boat (w title) on it, $75 of paint, $700 honda 5hp four stroke + gas tank that had been laying around from other boat stuff, and she is sold for $2700 when I get done playin with the Honda 5hp. Had a 22' aluminium fishing boat, kinda a bass boat, but not really. Anyway, we bought her 20 years ago to replace a blown motor on a 22' center console. Paid $3500. Sold CC for 12k, re-powered 22' ($1500)and dressed her up,(about $1500) sold her three weeks ago for $10k. Currently, possibly trading 3 - 28' pontoons that were part of a free motor deal, a few years back... Oh yeah, sold that motor last week for $900. But trading the pontoons for nearly 7 gallons of fresh (less that 6 months old) 105 and hardener, + they are giving me $850. I also have another 10 gallons of "pox" and hardener paid $670 for that coming on Sunday or Monday. Had two motors for the compac, kept the honda 2.3hp, and traded the mercury 2.5hp with boat (it was free, also". Sold the Mac 25 less the 8 hp mercury long shaft for $1500, this week. (paid 200 hundred for her with the new 8hp, 7 years ago. Will sell the 8hp for the second 9.9 or 15hp motor for the cross. Note, if I buy a 9.9, I will pull governor, and re jet to make it a 15hp. Will sell the 15hp and purchase second 9.9 or 15hp for the Cross. I also have another 22' pontoon that is looking to sell for $2,800. I purchased for 200, and added $350 in new deck, and two days labor.

Lets start at 0

0-4k+2k-300+1.5k+350+450-75-700+2700+10k+12k-3.5k-1.5k+900+850-670+1500-200= $21305.00-600 (10 sheets of marine ply)=$20,705-$350(Porta boat)- $125 for 20yards of 60 inch 6oz bi-axle glass .

All this is beside my main job, these dealing were all just for the purpose of finding, and fixing a boat that fit the requirements of my family.

So, if you get technical, I would say I got paid for the Cross---$3500 if you include the 7 months mooring fee's, and have a $20k budget to spend on her without hurt to anything of my normal life money. That is a Boat load of epoxy, glass, paint, and plywood. :-) I have all the tools, rig looks good, masts look good, chain plates need inspection, but were new 8 years ago and never seen salt.

To answer your question, I think she will be worth all of 35k-40k when I am done spending no more than 20k, possibly more if I spend more than that. Yet, who knows she might be worth a lot more than that to someone following along this whole process....

In a perfect world, when we are done with our trip(s), I would like to "give" her to one of our Patrons that helped make it all possible, and hopefully let someone else, that may never have this opportunity realize their dream, also.

That's a long way off, and a lot of work. Yet, you will realize, my mind, and the concept of money works very different than most people.. Hence, I live in a house I built, and paid for when I was 26, all from re-claimed lumber/ materials or built from scratch. In the video, tomorrow check the cabinets... made from a Shag bark Hickory Tree I was paid 3k to take down. The star and counter-tops were hand made from cherry, oak, and ash. Again, trees that I cut, or a friend cut down. It's not perfect, never will be finished, but is 3000 sq. feet; 5 bedrooms, Huge kitchen, 3 full baths, and a 24x30 home school classroom<--- check "Packing and Supplying for a Month Long West-coast Backpacking adventure."

I built the house complete for $47k in 2006, and has survived 2 hurricanes and a tropical storm.. You could say less than that, as we were paid $17k to tear down a house, that I sourced most of the lumber, insulation, wiring, a/c, and windows. =)

Meanwhile, I have sourced a 30' x 36' carport with sides, for the boat if need be, from one of my oldest clients and dearest friends for free for up to 6 months. That would give me 1 year to get her dried in from mooring to shed. Getting her to shed will be a trick.. :-).. I should hope that would be achievable. The removal from my lake to land will be tricky. I very well might sink some pilings and build a "boat lift" at the water front with a cradle. I have a more clever way using a cantilever lift system. Either way, I have months to figure on that. :-).

Cheers,

James
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Old 12-06-2020, 09:05   #85
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

BTW Have you seen the other, very recent thread, where some young people relate their 3 months' project become a 3 years' one?


Also a tri, in Mexico, if I recall.


Funny.


b.
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Old 12-06-2020, 09:55   #86
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Okay, Lets just cover this topic. I would like to have her dry, and sail able in 6 months. I would love to have her safe for gunk-holing to the Florida, and possibly the Bahamas in that time frame. It likely won't happen, but maybe it will. If it does happen she will not be perfect, but she will be safe. She may not be pretty, but she will be strong. I am not trying to make her something she is not. She is not a $200k yacht with teak inlays, and wine glasses with pinkies in the air.. Feasibly, We could run Icw to Florida and work on her along the way. Time frame really doesn't matter, either, 3 years, 5 years, 6 months, 3 months, who knows. She is not going to sail the south pacific, or across the pond. Heck, I don't likely see us doing overnight passages for quite some time.

So, lets assume it's going to take 3 years to do this project, and maybe up to 5 years, and it may not be worth it, and we may pull out at some point, potentially, losing all money invested... I am sure if that happens some here with get a good "I told you so" out of it. That is fine, also.

This is so much more than what a lot are focused on. This is a family that has ambition, and is willing to work together, to try to get somewhere, and something moved forward in a better shape that it started. This is a learning process for all 6 of us, to develop skills that are not taught in schools. This is exercise for adults and kids to get out of the way of some tv, game, or computer screen, and mostly this is adventure. It may never meet our expectations, time frame, or end goals.... but then again Ameris, could exceed those exponentially.

So, in short welcome aboard to our 3 year project to restore an old Cross 38!!! Enjoy the show, adventure, and thanks in advance for all comments.

Cheers,

James
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Old 12-06-2020, 10:20   #87
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

New video up... enjoy
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Old 12-06-2020, 18:26   #88
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Hello James

I looked at the modifications you were going to do to the galley and your concerns about cooking underway and boat movement. I have a 33 ft catamaran snd my galley is very open as it used the starboard side hull. In my opinion you need room in you galley to cook, prepare food, and wash up. Six people means that you will do a large cook, and you will have more than one thing on the go. I have sailed with 25 knots when I was in the galley and cooking, the movement was minimal yes there were some wave slamming but nothing worth of loosing your balance. The only trick was when carrying food to the table you had to get your body to move with the motion of the boat. Before modifying the galley too much I would sail the boat and try it. This will give you a better understanding of the boat and the way she sails
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Old 12-06-2020, 19:16   #89
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

@frederic-- thanks for your info.. I feel that is where we are at, we were just spit balling ideas in a boat the we had seen. First we are going to get her dry and safe,,, then we are gonna learn to sail her well, then we will think more about accommodations... that is unless we get stuck inside for months on end.
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Old 22-06-2020, 10:09   #90
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Hey everyone we have been at Ameris doing work for the last 3 days, We should be back on the daily video program for the next few days enjoy...
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