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Old 03-06-2020, 11:04   #31
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

...I should add this....

...though I have around 40 years on the water now and have had a blast, those 3 years I spent building my boat, were probably some of the best years of my life. Could not say why, but watching you rebuild that Cross brings back a flood of memories.

..back in the 70's it was quite common to see home built projects, but these days not so much...it's a rare breed today that takes on such a project....

...I'm halfway tempted to start again.....sheesh....I gotta stop coming here......
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:22   #32
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
here is the thread I inadvertently posted on your other thread.

the Piver outboard installation looked something like this...the hole in the cockpit was not that big...big enough to get the shaft and prop thru' but the main part of the engine was outside the hole. I'm guessing the hole was maybe 15" x 15" or so....it was not very big.

At the end of the day, I believe he put a diesel in, because the prop of that outboard was not very far below the water, and in rough water, tending to come out of the water....though you can get a shaft extension for those outboards now..

And then there was the issue of the fuel tank....his Honda engine used your basic 5 gallon outboard portable fuel tank... a pain in the rear end and gasoline to boot.

Outboards are not very fuel efficient at all as they run at high rpm..

It can work, but not very ideal.

A diesel install can set you back a lot of $$$....engine, shaft, prop, tankage, etc... but at the end of the day, the better solution.

I like it, I never have thought about that type of install, it could work very very well, I wouldn't rule out an outboard diesel.. Of course I would have to make it myself, but I am good at those things..

I hope to be more like s/v Uma in the long run, (if this is a long run at all), but we will see, I really, really like the idea of having two motors for the boat, like two 9.9hp motors in the wings... one mounted without the idea of using it for anything else-- the other doubling as a dingy motor, also.

Since, I will have two dingy's, one powered by a 9.9 and another by a 2.3 honda. It would give me a engine inventory of two 9.9's and one 2.3 for a total weight of 99kg.

In contrast a diesel in the bilge say 20hp beta weighs 104kg, plus a 50kg velvet drive, shaft and feathering prop say 15kg, tankage for diesel 10kg and so on. Plus I would still need (want) dingy motors of 56kg and fuel stowage..

I think you are correct, in the long run I will want a diesel, or (brushless) electric with regen and lots of Lithum... <--- mad scientist cackle. ;=). But budget and time will make me make sacrifices on wants vs needs.

Most importantly time in yard. See, I can install and modify for out boards at my moored position, currently and be ready to go... (I am sure I can do the same with diesel, but it would be a little feat of engineering. When I haul out, I expect to find more problems that I can't see. I want to attend to these swiftly, and get back in the water, For every dollar I spend getting ready to go, is one less that we can be spend going... We will see what happens, maybe, I stumble across a yanmar 2gm for dirt cheap in good working order, with stuffing box, transmission, and so on. I honestly haven't really looked to see what is out there either. On that topic.. I will say, if I were to go diesel, I want a mechanical one not a newer electronic one. Too pricey to fix for my taste... and electrical engineering often means (built-in Obsolescence) <--- not a fan of that, unless I am the Engineer. =-)

Cheers bud thanks again for the info.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:23   #33
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

P.S. the little fishy made the picture, great call !!!!
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:26   #34
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
...I should add this....

...though I have around 40 years on the water now and have had a blast, those 3 years I spent building my boat, were probably some of the best years of my life. Could not say why, but watching you rebuild that Cross brings back a flood of memories.

..back in the 70's it was quite common to see home built projects, but these days not so much...it's a rare breed today that takes on such a project....

...I'm halfway tempted to start again.....sheesh....I gotta stop coming here......
I have been told I am an old soul many times in my life.. I believe I was supposed to live in the early 1940's or fifties.... Ironically most of my best friends are all in the 70's and 80's, I just relate to them btr... has been that way since I was a kid. I dunno. Just me.. Gonna be an adventure. And please don't stop coming here.. I will need more of that wisdom, I am sure of it...

;-)
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:31   #35
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

As far as your question on getting the ama out of the water, we used to carry a pair of big truck inner tubes just for this purpose. Run them under the ama (flat) then connect a compressor/pump and fill them up with air. The ama will lift clear of the water floating on the inner tubes. Pretty much anything that will hold air and that you can get under will do.

We did this for exterior repairs when we ran into something. Don't see any problem with working from the inside, except that it is always harder working from the inside. There are stringers and frames that get in the way and make the working space more difficult. If your areas are small then working from the inside may be OK, if they cross stringers/frames then it becomes more difficult.

If working from the outside a router is useful, we would open up the hole, then use a router to build a step contour that matched the existing layers. Patch the hole to the layer of your first thickness (3/16"?) then put on another layer the covers that seam and extends out about 3-6" all around. Makes for a strong repair. Depending on location may also need to back up the seam on the inside.
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:46   #36
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

I got ya, and yes I was already thinking exactly the way your are.. I think I am going to add one of the foam "play" mats to the mix, also. I will be able to walk around like on land, kinda.. if it works it should be sweet. Thanks again for the great input like always...

Cheers,

James

P.s I am actually thinking to building a small cross section of ama.. just to practice a couple of Ideas, I will be using cheap lumber, and little glass, but I think it will be invaluable for us to have a walk through, and then hear back from the experts that watch the videos...
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:03   #37
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

If you are planning on using the dingy motors to power the tri then that will probably not work. The dinghy motors want short shaft and your tri will definitely want the XL shaft (25"). Mine did come out of the water in rough stuff even though it was XL. Getting the outboards down to the water usually requires a custom lowering mechanism for the entire motor.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:37   #38
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

I can tell you from experience that using an outboard to propel the motherboat is not an ideal situation. It will work in flat or calm water but unlikely to provide any meaningful thrust in the ocean when you really need it. Read my book.

A 9.9 hp engine is really a de-tuned 15 hp. The 9.9 hp thing came about to satisfy some interior lakes that had a 10 hp max. allowable. All the manufacturer did was re-jet the carb to produce 500 rpm less, but it's the same engine...same weight.

I had a 15 hp on my dink once.....it was a pain in the butt to get on and off...very heavy and cumbersome. Never again.

Not sure that you need 15 for a dink.....these modern 4 stroke outboards around 8 hp provide plenty of punch for a dink.

You need to go on a boat...any boat...out an inlet, when you have wind against tide situation, your bow and stern will rise 8' in the air....I'm telling ya...those outboards won't do a thing. It's not that will lack power, it's that their props will come out of the water. You only need to do this once to understand !!

Ya, the outboards is the easy way out here....cheap too....and a whole lot less installation work, but my advice remains the same.

I can understand the $$ concern, a diesel installation is a pretty big investment of time and money, but you will motor a lot more than you think...a lot more...and a lot further....doing this as a singlehander is one thing....but with your family onboard, it is quite the other.

An outboard will give you limited range....not nearly enuff....not even for getting to the B'mas. I've known several that have tried. Outboards suck fuel, have limited range.

I can guarantee you the first time you hit a problem as I've described above, you will pine for an inboard diesel !!!

Retro-fitting a diesel is going to be infinitely more complicated and expensive than doing it now. Trust me on this one.

You gotta bite the bullet and do it now.....this is why rebuilding a boat costs twice as much and takes twice as long.

Put a diesel in and quit thinking about the outboards !!
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:50   #39
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamBig View Post
I like it, I never have thought about that type of install, it could work very very well, I wouldn't rule out an outboard diesel.. Of course I would have to make it myself, but I am good at those things..

I hope to be more like s/v Uma in the long run, (if this is a long run at all), but we will see, I really, really like the idea of having two motors for the boat, like two 9.9hp motors in the wings... one mounted without the idea of using it for anything else-- the other doubling as a dingy motor, also.

Since, I will have two dingy's, one powered by a 9.9 and another by a 2.3 honda. It would give me a engine inventory of two 9.9's and one 2.3 for a total weight of 99kg.

In contrast a diesel in the bilge say 20hp beta weighs 104kg, plus a 50kg velvet drive, shaft and feathering prop say 15kg, tankage for diesel 10kg and so on. Plus I would still need (want) dingy motors of 56kg and fuel stowage..

I think you are correct, in the long run I will want a diesel, or (brushless) electric with regen and lots of Lithum... <--- mad scientist cackle. ;=). But budget and time will make me make sacrifices on wants vs needs.

Most importantly time in yard. See, I can install and modify for out boards at my moored position, currently and be ready to go... (I am sure I can do the same with diesel, but it would be a little feat of engineering. When I haul out, I expect to find more problems that I can't see. I want to attend to these swiftly, and get back in the water, For every dollar I spend getting ready to go, is one less that we can be spend going... We will see what happens, maybe, I stumble across a yanmar 2gm for dirt cheap in good working order, with stuffing box, transmission, and so on. I honestly haven't really looked to see what is out there either. On that topic.. I will say, if I were to go diesel, I want a mechanical one not a newer electronic one. Too pricey to fix for my taste... and electrical engineering often means (built-in Obsolescence) <--- not a fan of that, unless I am the Engineer. =-)

Cheers bud thanks again for the info.
I would also recommend an inboard diesel. I knew some people on a smaller cat that changed to 2x9.9hp outboards and regretted it. You'll spend less time working on the diesel in the long run. Their ship was 30' and under powered with them. Plus it is much safer to have diesel rather than gas aboard where possible.
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:59   #40
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

You should also think about resale value.

In the event you will want to sell that boat one day, I can assure you that a lot of people will be walking away once they see the outboards as primary propulsion.

A boat is not a good investment to begin with, but even less so, without an inboard diesel. You will have ploughed a lot of time and money into your rebuild, but will see little of it without that diesel.

Yep, I know people do it, but my advice remains the same.
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Old 03-06-2020, 16:01   #41
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Love the Cross 38s. Beautiful boat to sail. Outboard versus inboard has been done to death, Outboard is a perfectly valid choice provided you can get the appropriate mounting position. Modern Fuel Injected 4 stroke outboards use no more fuel than similar HP inboards. e.g. on the same design boat where there are multiple examples with both engine sources a Yamaha 25 uses about the same amount of fuel as a Yanmar 29. And will produce substantially better thrust 6 months into an antifoul propspeed cycle as the outboard prop will still be spotlessly clean, the inboard prop, not so much.
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Old 03-06-2020, 16:27   #42
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

on the diesel engine topic....

some ideas...

here in NE Florida they have schools that teach diesel engine repair to young students....a good source for a used engine..that has been totally rebuilt.

There are companies here in town that service, repair or replace diesel engines, another source for a bargain diesel engine...and they usually come with a warranty of some sorts.

Likewise there are companies that make the stainless shafts, props, etc...another source for a "like new" used product.

Even Maxprop sells used feathering props. I know because I bought one, at a third of the price of new one. Came with a full warranty and works flawlessly.

Then off course, there is a variety of online sources.

You probably have the same thing there in Texas, you just need to search online a bit..

In my boatbuilding experience, I had the unique experience of whenever I wanted or needed something...I found a way or it found me. Call it what you want, but just put it " out there"...and see what happens.

When I built my boat I hardly had two pennies to scratch together, but I always managed to find a way..or money..or an item....or a person....I could not tell you how these came...but they did.

To have the "dream" is the big thing...that is key to your success.

Start asking people questions, sooner or later you will hear " oh, I know so and so has that....etc....Dumpster diving was a favorite activity for me. Found all sorts of stuff.

Down in Ft. Lauderdale and also in St. Augustine are marine salvage yards, that have acres of used sailboat stuff of every description. Acres and shelves, with more stuff you can imagine.

There might be something like that in your area.

Well, your agenda may well be different from mine, so what I suggest may not be optimum for you, but I thought I could build my boat in 9 months...3 years later I splashed it, still missing a lot of stuff.

You boat will likely need some bottom paint in the future, which means a haulout.....a good time to address the diesel engine. You can put the engine in now, and just do the shaft work at the haulout, a process that can be done in a day or two.

Many options here.

You've heard from others on the outboard idea. Not saying not to do it, but better options exist.
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Old 03-06-2020, 18:58   #43
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

I have to fix rot first, I am currently researching and searching both options, if it is an efficiency problem, I hope to not have to motor much in the Bahamas and Caribbean, Might have to in gulf and gulf coast of Florida.. I am sure I will turn that motor on more than I want.
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Old 04-06-2020, 05:57   #44
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

In regard to your other post, just order the cheapest marine grade ply, the species doesn't matter. That boat will never be worth big bucks so conserve your funds when possible. There are lots of different options instead of ply including foam, balsa, Coosa and others. Some have glass already attached. You might find a good price especially if you just need smaller pieces for patching. Same with the engine, get the cheapest easily mounted acceptable powerplant(s) you can find. Brand new Seawinds and Maine Cats come with outboards so there's an answer to the diesel vs gas debate. Diesel outboards are rare btw and they used to be kinda heavy. Get a portable Honda generator and be done. Need aircon? Well they make portable ones too.
Test out that old epoxy first because it can go bad especially if opened.
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Old 04-06-2020, 12:24   #45
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Re: Bringing a Cross 38 back from the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
If you are planning on using the dingy motors to power the tri then that will probably not work. The dinghy motors want short shaft and your tri will definitely want the XL shaft (25"). Mine did come out of the water in rough stuff even though it was XL. Getting the outboards down to the water usually requires a custom lowering mechanism for the entire motor.
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Good point, I do have a plan for that. :-)
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