Attaching Sea Anchor on larger multihull

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Would you mind taking the time to explain how this is possible and what the fixes are. I also would personally like to still know who "We" are.

I wish your head of research had taken some video. Gales as classified have a pretty wide range in the wind spectrum - from 28 to 47 knots. A strong gale is pretty daunting but really for me the test of a para-anchor comes into play with storm force winds, from 47 to 65 knots. Otherwise you could use many tactics to handle the weather.

It’s all about speed. The faster a boat moves the easier it is for larger waves and/or stronger winds to unexpectedly toss a boat sideways (broach). The more stopped a boat is the less likely it will be tossed sideways. However, slack rode in any circumstance means a drag device is not fully engaged and your boat is essentially laying ahull. Sideways again.

The fix for all drag devices are in the Rode Tension solutions listed in the post above. What won’t work is cheaply built equipment that breaks.

Seaworthy Lass did state if we’re asked a direct question that we can answer. Hopefully this is correct. We are Fiorentino Para-Anchor, Lynnette (sales), Kim (owner), Carol (retired television anchor). We work together to answer questions and to set the record straight in regards to inaccurate, misleading or omissions of fact related to drag devices. We frequently bug Zack (independent research contractor) for the technical data.

Yes, many tactics can be used in heavy weather. We do have some good video deploying the para-anchor in rough seas on YouTube. Wind speed is really less important than wave distance and height.

Although, we have posted our research expert’s experience using a para-anchor during a hurricane in this forum. The seas were 16 feet (4.9 m) in height and closely stacked together. Mexico has shallow water, which made the experience bumpy. Mainland Mexico did offer some protection from the storm.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Kanani

I have only used a drogue one time in a serious blow. It was the scariest thing that I have ever done.

If conditions deteriorate, you are stuck with that drogue because getting off of it could end up with a serious catastrophe. If you stay with the drogue, you'd better have crew onboard that can handle the vessel in those conditions and not fatigue.

The nice thing about the para-anchor is that you can deploy it and relax. The experience is incredibly relaxing. I would NEVER deploy a drogue again unless it was imperative that I make way to stay out of the eyewall of a hurricane or if I were racing with ample crew and I could run off in an advantageous direction for a predictable amount of time. For the average cruiser, that is not in any particular hurry, there is nothing like the para-anchor for storm management.

Kanani, what model catamaran were you on when you had the drogue out? As I have stated several times, it would have been nice to see the deployment of a para-anchor in storm force conditions on a catamaran. Someday maybe we'll get that chance.

But I have seen a catamaran using a drogue in an actual storm. It's actually the best non-racing big sea video I've seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ-svmgOxqw

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

It’s all about speed. The faster a boat moves the easier it is for larger waves and/or stronger winds to unexpectedly toss a boat sideways (broach). The more stopped a boat is the less likely it will be tossed sideways. However, slack rode in any circumstance means a drag device is not fully engaged and your boat is essentially laying ahull. Sideways again.

Do you have any evidence of this? It sounds like an opinion not a fact. You do realize this is the catamaran forum and the topic is sea anchors on larger multihulls don't you. Because if so, I think those of us who actually sail large cat's would have to call BS on the whole paragraph above.

The fix for all drag devices are in the Rode Tension solutions listed in the post above. What won’t work is cheaply built equipment that breaks.

You had stated that there is a higher chance of having rudder damage with a drogue compared to a sea anchor. I'd really like to see evidence or even your opinion of how that is possible.

Seaworthy Lass did state if we’re asked a direct question that we can answer. Hopefully this is correct. We are Fiorentino Para-Anchor, Lynnette (sales), Kim (owner), Carol (retired television anchor). We work together to answer questions and to set the record straight in regards to inaccurate, misleading or omissions of fact related to drag devices. We frequently bug Zack (independent research contractor) for the technical data.

Thanks. I've heard of your company.

Yes, many tactics can be used in heavy weather. We do have some good video deploying the para-anchor in rough seas on YouTube. Wind speed is really less important than wave distance and height.

I searched your channel for the videos of rough seas and couldn't find anything even remotely rough, let alone storm force, mono or catamaran. This can't be the one you were thinking of is it?

Although, we have posted our research expert’s experience using a para-anchor during a hurricane in this forum. The seas were 16 feet (4.9 m) in height and closely stacked together. Mexico has shallow water, which made the experience bumpy. Mainland Mexico did offer some protection from the storm.

Thank you.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

It’s all about speed. The faster a boat moves the easier it is for larger waves and/or stronger winds to unexpectedly toss a boat sideways (broach). The more stopped a boat is the less likely it will be tossed sideways. However, slack rode in any circumstance means a drag device is not fully engaged and your boat is essentially laying ahull. Sideways again.

The fix for all drag devices are in the Rode Tension solutions listed in the post above. What won’t work is cheaply built equipment that breaks.

Seaworthy Lass did state if we’re asked a direct question that we can answer. Hopefully this is correct. We are Fiorentino Para-Anchor, Lynnette (sales), Kim (owner), Carol (retired television anchor). We work together to answer questions and to set the record straight in regards to inaccurate, misleading or omissions of fact related to drag devices. We frequently bug Zack (independent research contractor) for the technical data.

Yes, many tactics can be used in heavy weather. We do have some good video deploying the para-anchor in rough seas on YouTube. Wind speed is really less important than wave distance and height.

Although, we have posted our research expert’s experience using a para-anchor during a hurricane in this forum. The seas were 16 feet (4.9 m) in height and closely stacked together. Mexico has shallow water, which made the experience bumpy. Mainland Mexico did offer some protection from the storm.

The para-anchor website was one of the first referenced and I looked at.
I could not find anything on rigging effective adjustable rodes for catamaran's, especially in the detail level. Ie. Tying off part rode lengths etc.

Seems to be no online reference.

Others on here have good solutions - though mostly are fixed length rode / fixed bridle.

Also some debate on if full 600ft nylon rodes are too stretchy.

[Fi2010]

The facts still remain the same despite your inaccurate comments. The Constant Rode Tension solutions solve the issues you’re concerned about. If you prefer to choose a different alternative, then that’s your decision.

Here’s additional sources of information. The Drag Device Data Base book by Victor Shane, John and Joan Casanovas’ The Parachute Anchoring system, Dan Shewmon’s The Sea Anchor & Drogue Handbook, or Steve and Linda Dashews’ Surviving the Storm. Charles Kanter is also well versed in para-anchor deployment with multihulls.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The facts still remain the same despite your inaccurate comments.

Ouch.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Ouch.

I did have a Shark drogue in my Amazon list. On reflection, I think another brand may suit me better.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by nfbr

I did have a Shark drogue in my Amazon list. On reflection, I think another brand may suit me better.

Another sales success.

[LifePart2]

Like F12010 I am nervous of posting here lest I be in contravention of the posting rules. However, I feel I must...

There is a lot of speculation as to how para-anchors actually work in real life. Well, if you want to know, why not look at actual first-hand accounts of people who have been there? To learn from such experiences was the reason that Victor Shane compiled the Drag Device Database, and is the reason why, after it went out of print, I converted it to online format so anyone can peruse it for free. Dare I post a link? http://dragdevicedb.com

Furthermore, if you know of someone who has first hand experience, please encourage them to submit their experience to the database. The more information we have, the more benefit it is to all sailors. We especially need more accounts of para-anchors on multihulls, especially the modern designs.

I hope this was of help and germane to the discussion.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by LifePart2

Dare I post a link? http://dragdevicedb.com

I hope this was of help and germane to the discussion.

Why not? I think two other members have already posted the link and it's been posted on this forum probably 100 times. It's a good site and I've spent a lot of time reading the stories. Most of them are old, some very old, and there seems to be as many failures as successes with using para anchors or drogues.

The original poster asked about attaching on a multihull and this is posted in the multihull forum. It might be worth mentioning that another member, Yeloya, who has extensive sailing experience on nearly every catamaran you can think of started a thread to discuss storm tactics many years ago. It can be found by searching but his "thesis" was that it probably is better to do nothing then anything given the number of cat's that survive storms abandoned vs the number that have problems with drag devices. Right or wrong, the thread is worth reading for those interested.

[owly]

Your site is extremely valuable. Your effort and expense to keep it alive and growing are greatly appreciated.... I believe I posted that link early in the discussion, and I've shared it many other times. I would like to see the USCG maintain something of the sort on a stable long term site so there was no chance of this valuable resource ever being lost.


Instead of ignorant speculation and misinformation, the real world accounts are beyond question. I've read virtually every account with great interest. There is often more to be learned from what went wrong than from what went right... but unfortunately those folks would have to post from "the other side", and I don't think there is internet access there yet ;-)


One of the more dramatic and complete accounts I've read was that of Richard Wood when he abandoned Eclipse off Mexico in a near hurricane force gale.



(I don't recall this story being in the drag device database)


He started out with a parachute anchor, had trouble with the rigging and ultimately the chute just completely destroyed itself....and this was a purpose built parachute anchor. He then deployed a drogue, and the challenge was keeping the speed down enough resulted in overtaking waves, one of which swamped the cockpit and dinghy, which they lost. Ultimately he found trailing it from one stern instead of using a bridle worked best. It's worth noting that under the chute the boat was yawing wildly from side to side, which tells me that there was too much windage forward of the CLR, but boats do that at anchor from the bow anyway. There is a lot to digest in this account. it's worth reading and thinking about.



My conclusion was that the line being used for the chute may not have been ideal or long enough and stretchy enough. There is the matter of the dagger boards... I don't recall him saying weather they were fully up or partially down, or weather he experimented. Clearly the drogue was the better option. I like the concept of the Abbott Drogue because of the ability to change the amount of drag and find that "sweet spot"



H.W.

Originally Posted by LifePart2

Like F12010 I am nervous of posting here lest I be in contravention of the posting rules. However, I feel I must...

There is a lot of speculation as to how para-anchors actually work in real life. Well, if you want to know, why not look at actual first-hand accounts of people who have been there? To learn from such experiences was the reason that Victor Shane compiled the Drag Device Database, and is the reason why, after it went out of print, I converted it to online format so anyone can peruse it for free. Dare I post a link? http://dragdevicedb.com

Furthermore, if you know of someone who has first hand experience, please encourage them to submit their experience to the database. The more information we have, the more benefit it is to all sailors. We especially need more accounts of para-anchors on multihulls, especially the modern designs.

I hope this was of help and germane to the discussion.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by LifePart2

Like F12010 I am nervous of posting here lest I be in contravention of the posting rules. However, I feel I must...

There is a lot of speculation as to how para-anchors actually work in real life. Well, if you want to know, why not look at actual first-hand accounts of people who have been there? To learn from such experiences was the reason that Victor Shane compiled the Drag Device Database, and is the reason why, after it went out of print, I converted it to online format so anyone can peruse it for free. Dare I post a link? http://dragdevicedb.com

Furthermore, if you know of someone who has first hand experience, please encourage them to submit their experience to the database. The more information we have, the more benefit it is to all sailors. We especially need more accounts of para-anchors on multihulls, especially the modern designs.

I hope this was of help and germane to the discussion.

Hi Noel,

I have tried posting my experience with a JSD a couple of times on the DDDB but I have never been able to find it when searching the site. Maybe this could be why there are fewer recent reports?

[owly]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Hi Noel,

I have tried posting my experience with a JSD a couple of times on the DDDB but I have never been able to find it when searching the site. Maybe this could be why there are fewer recent reports?

I would suggest that drag device accounts be kept as a forum right here on CruisersForum. Not to replace the DDDB but to supplement it It could be created within the Seamanship, Navigation & Boat Handling section.



Cross posting would be valuable, and of course the first post in that forum should be a link to the existing DDDB This is important life saving information, and it is hard to imagine anybody who posted their account in either location objecting to it's appearing on the other. The best insurance that we will not someday lose this data is having it in multiple locations.



The current format requires a lot of time going down through the various accounts so you can arrive at a conclusion. The fact that it's broken down so you can access it by boat and device helps a lot. The broad based and dynamic nature of the DDDB makes it far more valuable than for example a book. Nobody is editorializing and it's up to the reader to draw the appropriate conclusions without the inevitable bias one would find in any book. We all tend naturally to draw conclusions at some point and then seek to support those conclusions rather than keeping an open mind. There should be straight forward factual accounts as there are, but there should also be discussion, and the two need to be kept separate.







H.W.

[LifePart2]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Hi Noel,

I have tried posting my experience with a JSD a couple of times on the DDDB but I have never been able to find it when searching the site. Maybe this could be why there are fewer recent reports?

Hi Mike,
I am sorry, I do not remember ever receiving a report from you. If you happen to have it still sitting in your laptop somewhere, perhaps you can PM it to me (or post it on this forum somewhere) and I will be happy to upload it.

I did recently receive three new reports, so those were added just before Christmas. Sadly no new Catamaran reports.

I don't have any budget for advertising, so it does depend on word of mouth to attract new reports. (The minimal price of the downloads just about covers the hosting expenses.)

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by LifePart2

Like F12010 I am nervous of posting here lest I be in contravention of the posting rules. However, I feel I must...

There is a lot of speculation as to how para-anchors actually work in real life. Well, if you want to know, why not look at actual first-hand accounts of people who have been there? To learn from such experiences was the reason that Victor Shane compiled the Drag Device Database, and is the reason why, after it went out of print, I converted it to online format so anyone can peruse it for free. Dare I post a link? http://dragdevicedb.com

Furthermore, if you know of someone who has first hand experience, please encourage them to submit their experience to the database. The more information we have, the more benefit it is to all sailors. We especially need more accounts of para-anchors on multihulls, especially the modern designs.

I hope this was of help and germane to the discussion.

You run an excellent site - thank you

Paul