Attaching Sea Anchor on larger multihull

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

It occurs to me that a breaking wave big enough to flip a boat attached to a sea anchor would also be big enough to flip a boat not attached to a sea anchor.

IMO it's not a breaking wave flipping the boat over but hundreds of them in a row crashing right over the forward trap and bridgedeck that will take you out.

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Keep in mind that the Catana capsized because the crew were unable to properly attach the bridle in the conditions they found themselves in. They had one arm going to a bow and the other over the anchor roller at the mid point of the forward crossbeam. Had they set up the bridle prior to leaving port the outcome may have been quite different.

It may have, without a doubt, been different if they had set the anchor up correctly. But to me the point is that these were seasoned sailors, I believe 4 of them, and a pretty solid boat. They couldn't get it right but a couple on their own would? Maybe. I'd guess it still wouldn't be weather that are true storm force conditions.

Motoring into the wind may work for a time on some boats, but on mine it would take close the full throttle on both engines and constant attention. How long before a typical cruising couple would become tired and inattentive? Hard to say. There were three of us and after 72 hours we were all wiped out mentally. There are other problems with motoring into heavy seas also. If we exceeded 4 knots forward the boat would launch airborne down the back side of the wave and really slam hard. I was particularly worried about the mast at this point. If we went under 3 knots, we lost steerage. So the watch routine was essentially using either motor to keep the boat on course and at the correct speed. As an FYI, I have 75hp motors and it only took about 2000 rpms to keep us at this speed into 45 to 50 knot winds.

I have spoken with 3 cat skippers who have deployed sea anchors in tough conditions, one at the edge of a hurricane. They were unanimous in their praise of the maneuver, the one that had the close brush with a hurricane credits it with saving the boat and his life.

It would really be nice if one of the cat sailors who set one would take 5 minutes of video to show the set up and conditions. I guess until I see it with my own eyes on video it will remain a no go.

Originally Posted by Fi2010

We understand some of you have different intentions with this thread and will likely avoid mentioning relevant information regarding the para-anchor.

Who is we and what info do you think is being avoided? Kind of a funny ending to your post.

[capn_billl]

Would a 35' bridle be sufficient. With a 40ft boat risk of prop entanglement if it fell in the water would be minimal.

[Fi2010]

The omission of relevant information on how to correctly use a para-anchor is abnormal. Focusing on the least likely negative to occur with the para-anchor makes this thread feel disingenuous.

As already stated, forum rules do not permit a service provider to link to information associated with their research, even if there’s nothing else available. The rules additionally prohibit us from mentioning our names, associate names, and company name.

However, we are allowed to mention the US Coast Guard, US Navy, and NASA involvement with the testing and use of para-anchors and storm drogues.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The omission of relevant information on how to correctly use a para-anchor is abnormal. Focusing on the least likely negative to occur with the para-anchor makes this thread feel disingenuous.

As already stated, forum rules do not permit a service provider to link to information associated with their research, even if there’s nothing else available. The rules additionally prohibit us from mentioning our names, associate names, and company name.

However, we are allowed to mention the US Coast Guard, US Navy, and NASA involvement with the testing and use of para-anchors and storm drogues.

Forum rules do not permit Marine Service Providers to discuss their product unless answering a direct question by a member. Flooding threads with promotional YouTubes and links and criticising similar products is specifically not permitted.

If a member requests information (and only if this occurs), please just post a summary of the relevant data and the source, rather than specific links or vague references to NASA. This has been abused in the past.

And please read the Forum rules rather than constantly complaining. It is wearing thin. There is nothing to stop you adding your business name to your set signature.

[Fi2010]

We believe we’ve received conflicting information on how to post. In order to avoid any misunderstandings we tend to be ultra conservative.

We’re going to set the record straight if essential information is omitted about para-anchors and storm drogues. We believe such action will inevitably save lives.

Did not realize the business name could be added to the “set signature”.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The omission of relevant information on how to correctly use a para-anchor is abnormal. Focusing on the least likely negative to occur with the para-anchor makes this thread feel disingenuous.

I have to disagree - I think there has been some excellent first hand accounts of parachutes being used. I thank the posters for taking the time to share them

[Fi2010]

Crafty.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Kanani,

It's great to get this feedback from someone who's used a para-anchor in challenging conditions. I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on the issue of the rode material choice. There seems to be 3 choices:
1) nylon that stretches to absorb the wave forces, but then it can slingshot you forward in the lulls, which may result in higher shock loading of the rode. Also nylon is weaker when wet and seems the fibers can heatup from the energy of stretching & become weaker over many cycle,
2) poly double braid which has less stretch and hopefully remains stronger,
3) dyneema used with chain in the rode ( so called constant tension technique) to provide water resistance as the rode is pulled tight and up through the water column. This supposedly replaces the stretch of the nylon. Obviously the float on the para-anchor must support the weight of the chain and chute so it doesnt sink down when the wind abates. This would provide a very strong rode that maintains strength & cuts down on weight and aids retrieval.

What are your thoughts about the best choice for the rode, now that dyneema is more available and affordable?

Breakage isn't an issue if the proper size line is used. I was quite happy with nylon, it had constant tension on it. I don't like the idea of chain mid-line. If you come up hard on that, something's may break on the boat. However, the concept is interesting because it may help keep the bow into the wind in the lulls (not as big an issue on multi-hulls). I thought about putting a kedge on a roller at one point but that would complicate retrieval. On your vessel, you may need to go with 3/4" nylon. I'm really not qualified to speak on some of the new material that has been made available since I was sailing (I retired 20-years-ago). However, I will say that stretch is critical to reduce damage to the bow of your boat. I think that Poly-double braid line is low stretch. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Braided nylon will stretch up to 25%. On 300' of rode, that's 75' of stretch. That's a lot more than you need but it's sort of like a rubber band, you don't want to stretch any material to it's breaking limit. You certainly want some over-kill.

As far as retrieval is concerned, I used a large fender with 75' of 3/8" poly, floating line (use gloves). When wind abates, the parachute will sink with your anchor tackle pulling it down at the open end and the parachute hanging from your float as you slowly motor up on the float. I used a 10' piece of 1/2" chain between the nylon rode and the parachute harness. That facilitated keeping the parachute a little lower in the water and made the parachute sink properly when tension is released. As you pull in the retrieval line, the anchor comes aboard from the center crown of the anchor. This makes retrieval surprisingly easy. As the parachute comes aboard, immediately stuff it in it's deployment bag, ready for deployment. When you arrive at your destination, you can rinse it with fresh water and hang it from a halyard to dry. On a sunny day, it will dry in about an hour.

Having said all that, the big Japanese squid boats that I saw off the SE coast of New Zealand used heavy steel cable to a large parachute. I didn't see any floats so I imagine that they winched the cable in as they motored up. NOT a tactic that you would use on a small craft like ours. Although, it's possible that they had retrieval lines coming all the way back to the ship. If you pull the parachute anchor in from the open end, in no wind, the parachute will hang upside down, fill with water and pull your bow under.

[Kanani]

Before I forget......... a side bonus to using the para-anchor is that dolphin seem to be fascinated with them. You may experience dolphin jumping, flipping and spinning all around and through your parachute. The first time that happened to me, I was scared that one might get tangled in the chute lines or the chute itself. Nothing ever happened other than I got to witness some pretty neat shows.

[Sos]

Kanani,


One of the problems with using a parachute, stated elswhere, is that your boat can be pushed astern with the chance of damaging the rudder(s).


With 75' of stretch was this something you considered or experienced?

[Fi2010]

Rudder issues are more likely to occur with a storm drogue, not a para-anchor. Luckily, the fix is simple for both types of devices.

Maintain Constant Rode Tension in the system by deploying rode with less stretch, add weight next to the drag device (not mid-scope), and/or speed up the boat via power or sail. We’ve had significant success with these solutions. You also have the option of using a larger device, but cost increases as well as managing heavier equipment.

We also recommend deploying short bridles. Maximum bridle length we manufacture matches the length of the boat. Bow sprits are not counted in the equation. However, we do lengthen bridles with adjustable systems or custom Coast Guard orders.

Our head of research discovered a bridle length of 3 to 5 feet (1 to 1.5 m) worked best for his Beneteau sailboat during drogue deployment. We keep hounding him to upload the video showing the setup he used during a gale in Mexico, while sailing in the Baja Ha Ha rally.

Bridle length recommendations by other suppliers….some have no written instructions: Para-Anchor: “2-3 times the boat’s beam, 66 feet (20 m), 100 feet (30 m).” Drogue: “20-30 feet (6 – 9 m), 50 feet (15.24), 2.5 x transom width plus splice allowance, plus extra to tie off on boat.”

We believe the shorter the bridle the better, because it reduces slack in the bridle. However, some believe a shorter bridle can lead to a jerky motion.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Rudder issues are more likely to occur with a storm drogue, not a para-anchor. Luckily, the fix is simple for both types of devices.

Would you mind taking the time to explain how this is possible and what the fixes are. I also would personally like to still know who "We" are.

I wish your head of research had taken some video. Gales as classified have a pretty wide range in the wind spectrum - from 28 to 47 knots. A strong gale is pretty daunting but really for me the test of a para-anchor comes into play with storm force winds, from 47 to 65 knots. Otherwise you could use many tactics to handle the weather.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Sos

Kanani,


One of the problems with using a parachute, stated elsewhere, is that your boat can be pushed astern with the chance of damaging the rudder(s).


With 75' of stretch was this something you considered or experienced?

The "Stretch" is not from sudden loading. I never felt in fear of the boat falling back on her rudder. I have seen that mentioned before but in reality, there is not much chance of that happening. The seas are rolling past the boat at (probably) 20-30kts or so in a bad blow. They sound a lot like a freight train going by. The vessel moves to leeward at maybe 1/2 knot. The stern is not likely to "Fall back" down the face of a swell because the swell is moving far too fast.

The fact is, once the vessel falls back on the para-anchor, she becomes quite stable and most of the motion feels straight up & down, with the occasional heeling from extreme gusts.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Would you mind taking the time to explain how this is possible and what the fixes are. I also would personally like to still know who "We" are.

I wish your head of research had taken some video. Gales as classified have a pretty wide range in the wind spectrum - from 28 to 47 knots. A strong gale is pretty daunting but really for me the test of a para-anchor comes into play with storm force winds, from 47 to 65 knots. Otherwise you could use many tactics to handle the weather.

I have only used a drogue one time in a serious blow. It was the scariest thing that I have ever done.

If conditions deteriorate, you are stuck with that drogue because getting off of it could end up with a serious catastrophe. If you stay with the drogue, you'd better have crew onboard that can handle the vessel in those conditions and not fatigue.

The nice thing about the para-anchor is that you can deploy it and relax. The experience is incredibly relaxing. I would NEVER deploy a drogue again unless it was imperative that I make way to stay out of the eyewall of a hurricane or if I were racing with ample crew and I could run off in an advantageous direction for a predictable amount of time. For the average cruiser, that is not in any particular hurry, there is nothing like the para-anchor for storm management.

[Cynara]

My answer is you don;t need one.

Used only for extreme conditions. With todays weather reports you can avoid serious storms.

Learn how to heave-to. Works just fine without the trouble of setting an anchor