Asymmetrical Spinnaker Vs Gennaker

[sailingchiro]

Originally Posted by rom

It is hard to believe you don't get more speed with a proper code-0 in light winds. Maybe that was very close reaching (what AWA is that ?) and winds not so light ? My genoa is 43sqm, code-0 I think about 90sqm, I definitely get more speed with the latter. Also, many code-0 I see on newer lagoons will not go in a sock because they are laminate, not dacron. (maybe some would call them screechers)

I find as the apparent wind increases with jib, I speed up while heading up more and more. With the code zero, It doesn't allow for increased apparent wind because it is limited on pointing ability.
Example: with jib and full roach main with 8knots of wind. I can produce to 12 knots of apparent as we speed up to 7.5-8 knots. Where as with code zero we are stuck with 8 knots of wind without increasing apparent and limited to 6 knots.

[Palarran]

This is a good conversation. I have a self tacking jib and would really like to get a flat cut Code 0 in the future. Because of the head attachment, I think it would be better to get one in a sock. From reading and talking to sail lofts, I can't expect better than 40 degrees apparent from the sail, most likely 45 degrees.

My current asym Code 4 has an unbelievable range of 70 degrees to about 5 degrees sailing by the lee. So a Code 0 will only fill in the gap from 40 or 45 to 70 or 80 degrees. This is really a small range but one I'd like to fill.

So, what do most of you see with a Code 0 when close reaching? Anyone running a 0 with a sock? Do you run your sheet lines inside your life lines?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Palarran

This is a good conversation. I have a self tacking jib and would really like to get a flat cut Code 0 in the future. Because of the head attachment, I think it would be better to get one in a sock. From reading and talking to sail lofts, I can't expect better than 40 degrees apparent from the sail, most likely 45 degrees.

My current asym Code 4 has an unbelievable range of 70 degrees to about 5 degrees sailing by the lee. So a Code 0 will only fill in the gap from 40 or 45 to 70 or 80 degrees. This is really a small range but one I'd like to fill.

So, what do most of you see with a Code 0 when close reaching? Anyone running a 0 with a sock? Do you run your sheet lines inside your life lines?

I can’t imagine how a tight luff sail like a code 0 or screecher or J0 or whatever you call it would work in a sock. How would you properly tension the luff? Loose luff sails (where the luff isn’t tensioned into a straight line) that are asymmetric can be either top down furled or socked, while symmetric sails can only be socked.

Typically for a close angle Code 0 et al you would use a 2:1 halyard for tension, or alternatively a 1:1 halyard and a 2:1 or 3:1 purchase at the tack to the bow pole. In the latter situation adding a halyard lock will reduce mast compression.

If you sheet outside your lifelines you will likely not be able to go below 50 degrees apparent wind angle. You will need to sheet inside the lifelines and shroud(s) to go tighter. As for how tight, it depends primarily on how flat the sail is cut, and secondly on the position of your inboard sheeting position.

If you don’t have a sheeting position on your cabin roof (that’s our problem) you could use a barber hauler to pull the leeward sheet inboard. That’s what we do. Our gennaker and spinnaker turning blocks are mounted on our rear chainplates, right on the deck edge. About 2m forward of the turning block we attach a snatch block to the sheet and lead it to a winch on the other side of the cockpit. We can haul the sheet in about 1m so the sail fits inside the shroud.

We can get up to 38 AWA doing this for best VMG but it’s a whole lot more fun to go 45 AWA and several knots faster through the water especially if we don’t have to go straight upwind. We can use it to 15 knots AWS so upwind it’s a very light wind configuration only.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I can’t imagine how a tight luff sail like a code 0 or screecher or J0 or whatever you call it would work in a sock. Me either, which is why I was asking. But I can see that the sock can be above the head of the sail. How would you properly tension the luff? With a winch?

Typically for a close angle Code 0 et al you would use a 2:1 halyard for tension, or alternatively a 1:1 halyard and a 2:1 or 3:1 purchase at the tack to the bow pole. In the latter situation adding a halyard lock will reduce mast compression. My cat has three winches that are mounted directly on the mast so that wouldn't be a problem.

If you sheet outside your lifelines you will likely not be able to go below 50 degrees apparent wind angle. You will need to sheet inside the lifelines and shroud(s) to go tighter. That's what I would have guessed also but it's interesting as all the photos and videos I've seen of 0's being flown have the spin sheet outside.

If you don’t have a sheeting position on your cabin roof (that’s our problem) I don't you could use a barber hauler to pull the leeward sheet inboard. I'd probably need a barber hauler to pull it outward and downward as the location of the back winches are about 5' inboard.

We can get up to 38 AWA doing this for best VMG but it’s a whole lot more fun to go 45 AWA and several knots faster through the water especially if we don’t have to go straight upwind. We can use it to 15 knots AWS so upwind it’s a very light wind configuration only.

Probably I'd at best be able to get 45 apparent out of it if you can only get 40. That would still be 30 degrees more then my Code 4. Thanks for the info.

Does anyone following this thread have their 0 in a sock?

[sailingchiro]

All I know is my symmetrical can be snuffed in less than a minute with sock by 1 person. The code 0 takes 3 people up to 5 minutes and it needs to be blanketed with the jib and main and head up into the wind. With the endless furler, (top down), if we are not careful we will get an over wrap that is impossibe to fix. we can't have any power in the sail at all to furl it. It rolls up very unevenly. Of course it is user error. I accept all credit for my failures.
I don't think my luff tension of the code 0 is helped or hurt by the furler versus sock.

Now, how I fixed my problems. I sewn into the luff some foam ( like what is sewn into the front of a genoa) to allow the first few wraps to have more girth. This allows the furler to roll up faster and prevents over wraps.

[Boatguy30]

The Furling sail will be good at tighter winds angles like your sail maker and other suggest? Do you sail those angles alot 70 deg to 110? In general there pretty limited in range especially when you have the wind shadow of a large mainsail. A lot of people go with a gennaker then a para spinnaker deal for off wind sailing.

I have a $50 30 y/o nylon drifter for a gennaker and 2 symmetrical spinnaker. One free other $200 and very good condition, slightly small.

Certainly help out the marine industry to encourage you to buy one however

[Alistair242]

Lots of good information here!
We are in the process of organising our sails for a Seawind 1260. The stock headsail is the self tacking jib, which is great for sailing to windward and in confined areas that require some tacking. I’m thinking it will also be good in heavier weather with a reefed down main.
The standard/first extra sail offered is a screecher run on bow sprit and endless furler. Being that we hope to circumnavigate staying most of the time in the trades, this doesn’t seem like a great set of sails for our purpose.
At the moment I am leaning towards adding a larger overlapping genoa that can be raised instead of the jib on the forestay and an as big as practical asym spi in a sock. I envisage that the genoa will be used as the main working headsail with the jib taking it’s place for passages where we foresee heavier weather and/or more windward work. We will include the offered bow sprit so that the asym can be tacked there for close reaching or to be run in tandem with the genoa for sailing DDW. We can also tack it on the windward bow for broad reaching.
It seems to me that the asym is a much more flexible sail than a code 0/screecher, particularly for those who intend or hope to do a large amount of down wind sailing.
Any suggestions or info to help us with this will be much appreciated. Already a great deal of good info here as said.

[fxykty]

The 1260 is relatively light, hence the self tacking jib as the primary headsail is fine. The screecher fills the hole for 7-8 knots TWS or less, both for upwind and for reaching.

And the screecher, whilst flat, is perfectly suitable downwind in reasonable breeze - more than 10 knots TWS. We run ours from the bow pole to about 120 AWA and deeper than that from the windward bow.

If the wind is lighter and we want to go 120 AWA to DDW then we use our symmetrical spinnaker. A wing sail (Wingaker or Parasail) would be a nice upgrade and more useful to us than an asymmetric spinnaker.

It depends on how much you think the wind will be too light for the jib, as the larger genoa is more work as the wind pipes up and the extra power isn’t often needed by your boat.

[Alistair242]

Ok. So you feel the overlapping genoa is not worthwhile? Maybe better to go with the screecher and a symmetrical spi?
So many options. We want to limit it to two extra headsails.

[davecalvert]

Originally Posted by Alistair242

Ok. So you feel the overlapping genoa is not worthwhile? Maybe better to go with the screecher and a symmetrical spi?
So many options. We want to limit it to two extra headsails.

The Seawinds are set up for a flat screacher to use upwind in light air. These screachers also work well on reaches. The stronger the wind, the lower the angles. We build a couple different size asymmetrical spinnakers for the Seawinds all used on the factory bow sprit.
Symmetrical spinnakers are good for long down wind runs but, if keeping sail inventories to a minimum, the asymmetrical spinnaker or large Code 0, on a furler, would be the best for wide wind ranges.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by Alistair242

Lots of good information here!
At the moment I am leaning towards adding a larger overlapping genoa that can be raised instead of the jib on the forestay and an as big as practical asym spi in a sock.

Yes, that is a good combination. For the asym, though, do not go for "as big as practical", instead get what is called an A2, it is the most versatile asym for downwind, usable in a wide variety of conditions (the sailmaker would know, the A2 nomenclature is known in the sailmaking industry). Use the large genoa for reaching and the A2 for anything downwind.

[Sparx]

What Dave Calcert says perfectly aligns with my experience sailing a performamce oriented cat with a large main and small jib (Maine Cat 38).

With wind forward of the beam the blade jib is all we have ever wanted. It is deep down wind angles where this rig benefits from hoisting other sails. We added a sock furled assyemtrical designed for light wind conditions, which if a joy in up to 12 to 15 knots apparent from wind on the beam to dead down wind. If we were to add an addition sail it would be flatter and smaller than the assyemtrical (ie Code 0) to handle higher wind situations, and probably be roller furled on the prodder.

[Alistair242]

Originally Posted by Sparx

What Dave Calcert says perfectly aligns with my experience sailing a performamce oriented cat with a large main and small jib (Maine Cat 38).

With wind forward of the beam the blade jib is all we have ever wanted. It is deep down wind angles where this rig benefits from hoisting other sails. We added a sock furled assyemtrical designed for light wind conditions, which if a joy in up to 12 to 15 knots apparent from wind on the beam to dead down wind. If we were to add an addition sail it would be flatter and smaller than the assyemtrical (ie Code 0) to handle higher wind situations, and probably be roller furled on the prodder.

Thanks all. This is the direction I will go in. Seawind offers a screecher on a continuous furler and an asym in a sock. Will seek to get more detailed specs.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Don't really think its a cat vs. mono experience,

Have to disagree, an asymmetric Spinnaker - or MPS as we call them here, Is an absolute doddle to fly on a Multi. just utilising blocks on each bow, A bridle tack line, a sheet and a halyard, job done. And with the bridle tack line can adjst tack position from the cockpit. An Assy on a mono is not so easy. An assy/MPS on a cat is a cruising sail of choice even single handed.

[davecalvert]

Originally Posted by David Mark

The sail we are missing on our Seawind 1160 deluxe is a light air up wind sail , we have a self tacking working jib for heavy weather , and a screecher for off the wind , what we are missing is a up wind 135 or 150 traditional jib , nice and flat for 10 knot winds , the screecher or genneker or A spinniker are great for there intended point of sail . upwind is were we could use that extra cloth .

David, the Seawind 1160 and 1190 use the screacher, sheeted inboard the shrouds, as a genoa. If this sail is built strong, no problem close on the wind in 10 kt true winds.