Are all cats essentially pilot houses?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cadence

If you are speaking of the cats and pilot houses, I'd agree. If you were speaking of watch standing I don't. New members all the time many with little or no experience.

I was talking about the people who seem to rely on their electronic screens and ignore their actual surroundings.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Few Cats have pilot houses, though most do resemble "deck salons", in mono-speak.

We have an actual pilot house cat. I think most cats have a safe and warm area to keep watch, but there are some of the older ones that don't have a view forward, from inside.

Just be sure to keep the lights off, while keeping watch!

Can you trim and release the sheets from the helm, or do you just motor?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by smj

I was talking about the people who seem to rely on their electronic screens and ignore their actual surroundings.

I was well aware of what you meant and agree 100% That is what I was saying couldn't be mentioned to often. I don't ever like relying on the back up camera in the car. A good tool but it isn't the eyeball.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Can you trim and release the sheets from the helm, or do you just motor?

This is what I like a about the Broadblue Rapier 550. Watch keeping would mostly be done inside, but unlike say the Gunboat, all the lines lead to the inside helm. On the Gunboat you still have to go out into the forward cockpit, although the main watch keeping is done inside.

Having an argument about watch keeping inside or outside is a bit daft in all fairness. Provided the boat has the visibility for it then it can be done anywhere. There's no reason to feel the 30 knt wind on your face or the rain on your head in any long passage.

[catsketcher]

It will depend on the bridgedeck cabin of the cat. Some cats have pretty poor visibility from inside, some have better visibility inside than from the cockpit. There are a few cat designs with poor visibility inside and out. On some cats you need to stand tall to see over the cabin and they may lack cabin windows to see out of as well.

I prefer a cabin design where sitting inside gives you a great view - 360 degrees with some blind spots caused by the structure. Then you can plot the course, make a sandwich, get a drink, get out of the sun etc and see all that is needed. Sitting down in a helm chair on a cat may causes issues - most cats have rather large blind spots (especially with genoas and Code 1s up) so you may be better moving around - checking trim, looking to the horizon, having a squiz and then - on our boat - getting back inside (if the weather is reasonable) if you want. At night the tinted windows require one to get outside to see properly but I prefer to stay rested and clear and get active every 10 minutes or so rather than stay in the helm seat. Even on a cat designed for good visibility there are plenty of blind spots, so sitting in one place is discouraged.

As to needing to be right near the sheets at all times - I don't feel the need. We sail and reef so that we have lots of reserve stability but that said, the sheets are only a second or three away from anywhere we sit - inside or out

cheers

Phil

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Can you trim and release the sheets from the helm, or do you just motor?

The mainsail track car, and main sheet are controlled at the helm. There is an electric Rewind Harken winch for the main sheet, and an electric Antal line driver for the track car, both controlled from a single joystick, at the helm.

The halyards, and jib sheet are controlled through that door in the photo, on electric harken winches, just over a meter (or, one step) forward of the door. We may install another Rewind winch, but since the jib is only about 33m2, we didn't initially opt for being able to operate the jib from the helm. Perhaps an oversite, but one that can be corrected, if we don't like it this way.

Cheers.
Paul.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Cadence

If you are speaking of the cats and pilot houses, I'd agree. If you were speaking of watch standing I don't. New members all the time many with little or no experience.

May I be one then?

I think the original statement of primary vs "nice to have" and the follow-up comment might have been a bit too absolute.

COLREGS talks about using "all available means" to make a "full appraisal". (It's good to see underwater rocks, for example, so using charts is great for that. Radar, if you have it, is also good to enhance "seeing" that EyeBall 1.0 might miss...)

Well, anyway. I think billknny is right. I just wanted to slightly un-curmugeonize it, since you continued the discussion

[Shaneesprit]

I don’t think this is a CAT question, i don’t have any indoor steering, the only issue I have with being in the cockpit is I can’t hear the VHF
I have a friend with a 55ft motor sailer now I would be happy to steer that in side the wheel house under sail
( Square rigged )
But on my CAT I prefer to sit on the bow with my legs over the front and feet dipping in the waves - when the Auto pilot is behaving and it’s safe to do so,.
New EV-100 just fitted hope it’s better than the ST2000+

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by billknny

Everything else is nice to have, but a proper lookout is still the most important tool, and the only one legally required for all boats.

Technically, if you have radar, you are required to use it, so the above isn't completely true. See Rule 7.

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

That doesn't mean you should use all the gadgets instead of eyeballs as they are one of the "available means" and are appropriate in all conditions (though arguably not super effective in limitited visibility).

I have often wondered about the applicabiilty of this rule to a sail boat that is operating under sail... a radar sucks power and if you're not running an engine... :/ Are you still required to use it? Perhaps "prevailing circumstances" gives a vessel an out, though I'm not sure.

[KC375]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

Technically, if you have radar, you are required to use it, so the above isn't completely true. See Rule 7.

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

That doesn't mean you should use all the gadgets instead of eyeballs as they are one of the "available means" and are appropriate in all conditions (though arguably not super effective in limitited visibility).

I have often wondered about the applicabiilty of this rule to a sail boat that is operating under sail... a radar sucks power and if you're not running an engine... :/ Are you still required to use it? Perhaps "prevailing circumstances" gives a vessel an out, though I'm not sure.

I'm now lawyer but I think the "if operational" might get you off using radar while under sail if using radar drains you batteries to the point it creates other operational issues ....

[Cadence]

Thread drift maybe?

[Jasseji]

Hello, i have posted this in a Topic discussing Aventura Cats specifically but i do believe this thread feels more suited as this question is rather about general design (i am sorry for the Necro but i couldnt find any more suited topic)

Hello, i am new here and this is propably not the best place for an introductory post but i am wondering, i have been looking at the Aventura Designs as they fit nicely in the pricerange i imagine for a boat i'd buy (i know, i have taken into account all the required extra money after purchase) but my main concern is, how does an open raised Helm Design fare for longer Passages ?

I mean, ok, the visibility is nice and looks better than say a Seawind 1160 or other designs but on Passage we dont always have the perfect weather.

I know Autopilot is an option but you still have to get up there quite a lot for trimming, tacking, reefing etc. and the weather will not always be perfect ie. wind, rain etc.

Wouldnt adding a Bimini raise concerns (boom clearance is one but i dont think too much a factor, more the added windage), also as i can see the access to the Helm is from the outside and not from the cockpit so slipping on deck in heavy seas to get to the helm in an emergency would be a factor i believe.

Is anyone here cruising a cat with a similar Helm setup and can share his thoughts ?

I do understand, that especially in bad weather one should keep watch on the Helm, but even so, i find that a lot of cats have this design, that the Raised Helm Station is exposed to the Elements and not accessible directly from the Cockpit (i.e.: you need to walk on the outside). In Bad weather not only one gest soaked from all sides but even in a situation of Watch change, it is dangerous for the other person to get to the Helm when you need to leave it.

Would such a design (i was looking specifically at the Aventura 34 but other Cats seem to have this as well) limit the use of such a Boat for Passages in your oppinion ?

I cant edit/delete the other Post anymore

[donradcliffe]

On offshore passages, 99.9% of shorthanded cruisers use the autopilot 99% of the time and stand watch from someplace out of the sun and weather. The only time I stand or sit at the helm is during a squall. When the wind suddenly doubles and you lift a hull dumping the mainsheet on a cat is usually way more effective than changing course, but it requires an immediate response.

[Jasseji]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

On offshore passages, 99.9% of shorthanded cruisers use the autopilot 99% of the time and stand watch from someplace out of the sun and weather. The only time I stand or sit at the helm is during a squall. When the wind suddenly doubles and you lift a hull dumping the mainsheet on a cat is usually way more effective than changing course, but it requires an immediate response.

This would be exactly my point when i view the inherent dangers of cats, which dont have direct, fast access from the saloon/cockpit to the Helm station (as in those designs all the lines run to the Helm)

Or am i overthinking this ?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by chrisr

we always maintain watch from the cockpit...it's under roof and quite sheltered, but you are still in touch with the weather and how the boat is handling the conditions.

this was actually taught to me as a first year apprentice when i went to sea. the master on my first ship would not let the office of the watch stay inside the wheelhouse...by all means come in and plot a positron or whatever..but then back out on to the bridgewing...and this was on a 15,000dwt ship

old habits die hard

cheers,

Must have been on some fairweather routes? I've been on Coast Guard cutters where the lookout had to do 5 minutes rotations to avoid freezing while standing outside, can't image spending the majority of a 4 hour OOD watch outside in those conditions and it certainly wouldn't have made me a safer watch stander!