Anyone sail a Bene Excess cat?

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

In the first instrument shot, they are doing 6.9 SOG with TWS 13.7 and TWA about 130 (from AWA 100). Mainsail and a code zero up.



In the second, 6.8 SOG, TWS 14.1, TWA 130 (from AWA 101), but there's also the STW at 4.9 knots (!). .

That's why I never accept SOG when talking about performance. You should see our numbers cracked off going with the Gulfstream. I think SOG pretty close to TWS.

STW of 5 knots in 14 knots TWS, is not very good.

[Sail IC]

I hope nobody will buy the E11 expecting a performance boat.

I hope nobody looks at the published polars and expect to get that level of performance. Not even close.

But if looking for a boat with lagoon space at lagoon performance at the lowest available price, to me, it looks as a pretty good package. It has a place in the marketplace where none of the big three has an offering.

I like it :-)

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Sail IC

I hope nobody will buy the E11 expecting a performance boat.

I hope nobody looks at the published polars and expect to get that level of performance. Not even close.

But if looking for a boat with lagoon space at lagoon performance at the lowest available price, to me, it looks as a pretty good package. It has a place in the marketplace where none of the big three has an offering.

I like it :-)

about sums it up

however i would wait just a bit regarding performance part. Upwind gennaker does transform light wind performance, at least i am hoping so, so can install similar setup on our boat if it shows worthwhile. But 7 kn in 8 kn true at 28 app, that is stretching it quite a bit.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Sail IC

I hope nobody will buy the E11 expecting a performance boat.

I hope nobody looks at the published polars and expect to get that level of performance. Not even close.

The polar thing is indeed weird! In one technical document, they go to great lengths to explain how other manufacturers might "cheat" in their published polars.. so..

According to the published polars, the boat in the video above, with TWA 130 and TWS ~14:

- with the standard rig: about 8 knots
- with the pulse rig: also about 8 knots

The polars are, however, for an empty boat, and the boat in the video is obviously not empty, so that's the first problem (with the polars).

The second problem is that 8 knots vs 4.9 knots isn't even close, but, it might well be that there are calibration issues on the boat (and if so, the TWS/TWA are off as well).

8 knots vs 6.9 knots is a bit better, and this difference might be attributed to an empty vs loaded boat. (Looking at the video, though, the boat doesn't seem to go 7 knots through the water, but who knows.)

FWIW, I think we as customers should

a) push the manufacturers to release more and better performance data (the Excess people, for example, please publish polars for loaded boats!); and

b) collect and publish real-life data from our own sailing to complement the polar picture (see here for example https://nakedsailor.blog/2021/02/21/...e-performance/)

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by Sail IC

I hope nobody will buy the E11 expecting a performance boat.

I hope nobody looks at the published polars and expect to get that level of performance. Not even close.

But if looking for a boat with lagoon space at lagoon performance at the lowest available price, to me, it looks as a pretty good package. It has a place in the marketplace where none of the big three has an offering.

I like it :-)

I thought they were initially trying to market this as a step above Lagoon?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

I thought they were initially trying to market this as a step above Lagoon?

Yes, performance-wise, that was my impression..

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, performance-wise, that was my impression..

I meant materials and price wise. Thought I saw some videos saying this (and that it failed).

[Piscis]

The XCS cats are priced below a comparable Lagoon.

Quality of the boat and materials are on a similar level, as far as i had the chance to compare them side by side on the Boot in Dusseldorf.

John

[marcok]

Hi there; we just crossed the Bay of Biscay with our Excess 11. She handled the fairly rough weather pretty well (note; we also own/sail a Dehler 38SQ from 2019 - which serves as our point of reference). It was a pretty bumpy ride but the pitching was much less than we expected from a fully loaded (2x 200L fuel, 2x 300L water, spare 25kg anchor, chain, lithium, watermaker, airco) cat this size. We're mainly sailing with 1 reef and had between 14- 22 knots if wind doing around 6.7 kn average at 46 AWA. Please note; I've seen quite some polars and non of them really tell the truth. Also keep in mind the sea state was far from ideal. Once we'll have some more data point, more than happy to share/discuss.

One other point to note; sail trim is very important and will take us some time to get it spot on. I've sailed my entire life including competition sailing in Lasers etc but I'm 100% we're not getting the trim perfect yet.

We got the change to have the sail designer from Incidence Sails on board as well as the naval architect of the boat; damn that was useful and a humbling experience which we much appreciated.

Feel free to reach out 1:1 if you have other questions on the boat - we picked her up last week in Les Sables D'Olonne, France. (=delivery dock for Lagoon and Excess)

Short list of upgrades we did in case anyone interested.

* Added 990 watts of rigid panels on the davits
* 1200 watts of Sunbeam walkable panels on the roof (installed by Robin Marine - awesome guys and right at the delivery dock)
* 900Ah of Lithium (installed by Robin Marine)
* 5000 watt Victron Quattro (installed by Robin Marine)
* 10.000 BTU Airco from TCF (installed myself)
* Zen50 watermaker (installed by Robin Marine)
* 32kg Delta anchor (in lieu of the 20 kg)
* 20 hp Honda on the CL290 highfield in lieu of the 6 hp

[jbinbi]

@marcok,

Thanks for a real world perspective. Awesome amount of solar, if you are down in FL/Bahamas you should be in great shape with 900Ah of Li. Assuming you are foregoing a generator?

20hp on a CL290, that must fly!

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by marcok

Hi there; we just crossed the Bay of Biscay with our Excess 11. One other point to note; sail trim is very important and will take us some time to get it spot on. I've sailed my entire life including competition sailing in Lasers etc but I'm 100% we're not getting the trim perfect yet.

We got the change to have the sail designer from Incidence Sails on board as well as the naval architect of the boat; damn that was useful and a humbling experience which we much appreciated.

Wow, excellent post. I'll chime in with our experience regarding sail trim. Our history is racing beach cats, then a Corsair 24 and Corsair 28R. Even did some bay and offshore distance races in the Seawind 1000 (33 ft cat) that we owned before this 1160 Lite. Have our share of the trophies, although not as many as some. Big proponent of leach telltales on the main on top third of the sail, and then just the standard telltales on the luff. Standard advise upwind is to ease the traveler car to get the bottom telltales flowing. Then ease the mainsheet to get the leech telltales flowing near the top of the sail.

BUT what we have found is that although the mainsail telltales can all be flowing as if they were trimmed correctly, the boat will actually have more speed (at the same AWA), if you release a little more mainsheet to instill some twist in the top of the sail. Telltales will obviously still be flowing, and probably a little more solid. But on our 33 ft cat - and even the 38 ft cat - there is a noticeable speed improvement by not being oversheeted, but instead being what most would consider being undersheeted on the mainsheet.

In 2016, we had 3-4 Seawind 1000's cruising the Exumas. Two of us were racers by background. Every time the anchor came up to go to the next Cay, it was race-on! Provides a great opportunity to find out what sail trim works best.

Finally, we are proponents of putting good quality sails on boats. The Seawind 1000 came with dacron sails, and although their appearance was good, they were very stretchy. We changed to Pentex laminate sails, square top main, and it was a completely different boat performance. For our Lite build, we have Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin (carbon) sails. Mainsail a bit larger on the roach than stock, which means we reef a bit earlier, but also are still sailing in wind that many others are motoring. All that said, I have also sailed on an 1160 Lite with dacron sails, and the twisted mainsail trim mentioned was faster setting on it as well.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Wow, excellent post. I'll chime in with our experience regarding sail trim. Our history is racing beach cats, then a Corsair 24 and Corsair 28R. Even did some bay and offshore distance races in the Seawind 1000 (33 ft cat) that we owned before this 1160 Lite. Have our share of the trophies, although not as many as some. Big proponent of leach telltales on the main on top third of the sail, and then just the standard telltales on the luff. Standard advise upwind is to ease the traveler car to get the bottom telltales flowing. Then ease the mainsheet to get the leech telltales flowing near the top of the sail.

BUT what we have found is that although the mainsail telltales can all be flowing as if they were trimmed correctly, the boat will actually have more speed (at the same AWA), if you release a little more mainsheet to instill some twist in the top of the sail. Telltales will obviously still be flowing, and probably a little more solid. But on our 33 ft cat - and even the 38 ft cat - there is a noticeable speed improvement by not being oversheeted, but instead being what most would consider being undersheeted on the mainsheet.

In 2016, we had 3-4 Seawind 1000's cruising the Exumas. Two of us were racers by background. Every time the anchor came up to go to the next Cay, it was race-on! Provides a great opportunity to find out what sail trim works best.

Finally, we are proponents of putting good quality sails on boats. The Seawind 1000 came with dacron sails, and although their appearance was good, they were very stretchy. We changed to Pentex laminate sails, square top main, and it was a completely different boat performance. For our Lite build, we have Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin (carbon) sails. Mainsail a bit larger on the roach than stock, which means we reef a bit earlier, but also are still sailing in wind that many others are motoring. All that said, I have also sailed on an 1160 Lite with dacron sails, and the twisted mainsail trim mentioned was faster setting on it as well.

interesting point re sail trim. I trim to what I think it should be for upwind then decrease apparent wind angle for 10 degrees on AP.

6.7 kn average of Excess 11 in bumpy seas at 48 app is averaging around 3kn VMG, pretty good for 11m cat.

[Factor]

I am not sure I have seen a cat with a shorter boom since the early prouts. Have they learnt nothing about foils?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

I am not sure I have seen a cat with a shorter boom since the early prouts. Have they learnt nothing about foils?

i expect my spiritual leader VPLP to deliver goods. So far they failed.

[Factor]

You do understand architects naval or terrestrial design to a brief dont you?