Anti-Capsize Technology and Systems

[Manateeman]

So the Raymarine core can be ...not sure what word to use...adjusted or programmed...to fit a particular vessel?

[Cavalier MK2]

Shorter masts are a great technology to use for capsize prevention. For more area 2 mast systems have their place.. That 40 knot gust on deck keeps going up the higher you go and that long mastop lever arm makes it far easier to move your world, upside down. As the world becomes driven by changing, more volatile weather systems cruising boats should adjust accordingly.

[rob denney]

This video (from 0:34) was shot in Corsica a week ago. Popular cruising area, middle of summer.

Picture yourself sailing and this happening at 3 am while you are asleep under autopilot with it's wind strength bear away/luff software telling it how to respond. Or relying on a sheet fuse to dump a metre or so of sheet.

Bearing away and running before this with the main pinned against the shrouds and the headsail flogging, impossible to furl, would end in tears. Especially if you accidentally gybed.
Luffing (assuming you could) to drop the sails would be worse.

A fully battened mainsail with 1:1 sheet dumped so it was flying over the bow while you ran more or less downwind would provide a lot more time, with a lot less noise, stress and apparent wind to get the sail down and a drogue/parachute out if sea room was an issue.
Set up properly, including a wishbone boom with catching lines under it, releasing the halyard would be all that is required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNURRMH5c3w&t=39s

[Cavalier MK2]

Now Rob, exploding bolts on the stays could work to jettison the rig, you would be tethered by a long line to use it as a sea anchor and facilitate rig recovery....ahem.

I used a stay free rig on my sailing canoe for your mentioned reasons and it worked well for keeping me upright. Being stuck with stays on my tri I like jib only for off wind inclement weather. Art Piver always suggested rigs that would carry away before capsize which was a old square rigger concept for top masts etc . . But being on the lee side of a falling spar has it's drawbacks.

[rob denney]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Now Rob, exploding bolts on the stays could work to jettison the rig, you would be tethered by a long line to use it as a sea anchor and facilitate rig recovery....ahem.

Ahem, indeed. ;-) The sheets, halyards and electric wires all keep the rig close to the boat, where there is a pretty good chance it will hole the boat.* That is assuming all the stay's explosive bolts actually exploded and in the correct order for the rig to fall in the desired direction. **

If you were cruising on a stayed rig cat with the right amount of sail pre the video squall and still had it up when the squall hit, you would not need exploding bolts. Either the mast or sails would probably fail, assuming you didn't flip first.

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Art Piver always suggested rigs that would carry away before capsize which was a old square rigger concept for top masts etc .

Any half decent engineer can design a rig to fail at a precise wind strength. Any half competent builder or supplier will sell you products that will do the same. Getting them to guarantee that it will happen when it should is about as easy as getting the owner to agree that the rig carried away a hair's breadth before catastrophe.
Boats don't sail in a static environment. Or remain as they were built.

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

But being on the lee side of a falling spar has it's drawbacks.

Too true. Not much fun being whacked by a flogging headsail or it's sheet, either. Or hit by a gybing boom or, more likely on most cats, getting your hand in the way of the traveller car.
More reasons for unstayed masts and self vanging booms.

[catsketcher]

Safety is a balance of many factors. Deciding on a specific rig needs to be done for the full range of conditions, not just a few nominated sets that may favour a single solution. Developing anti-capsize systems that assist the very numerous wire rigged catamarans would be beneficial to a huge number of people who actively make a valid and totally responsible choice to avoid cantilever rigs and the design limitations that come with them.

[ozolli]

The ACS / Ganovelli Concept website URL : https://www.ganovelli-concept.fr/

[Cavalier MK2]

Well the tech solution for Rob's storm cell would be emergency alert weather on a variety of media- radio ,phones, radar velocity alarm etc.... The non tech solution is to keep a good watch, someone has to have their head out of the cabin on a regular basis, insulating your self from the environment is not how to be safe in it, this appears to be a factor in some of these capsizes where conditions were under estimated.

I'm not going to change to a stayless rig because of the huge amount of work and engineering needed for a conversion. I did admire the unstayed Lungstrom cat ketch Dick Newick put on his White Wings trimaran design, un complicated cruising. Stays or not any boat can have rig failures, sheets hung up and didn't release etc... I think the best safety potential is in the people sailing the boat, not trust in the gizmos. Tools are great, but you have to know what to make with them.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Well the tech solution for Rob's storm cell would be emergency alert weather on a variety of media- radio ,phones, radar velocity alarm etc.... The non tech solution is to keep a good watch, someone has to have their head out of the cabin on a regular basis, insulating your self from the environment is not how to be safe in it, this appears to be a factor in some of these capsizes where conditions were under estimated.

I'm not going to change to a stayless rig because of the huge amount of work and engineering needed for a conversion. I did admire the unstayed Lungstrom cat ketch Dick Newick put on his White Wings trimaran design, un complicated cruising. Stays or not any boat can have rig failures, sheets hung up and didn't release etc... I think the best safety potential is in the people sailing the boat, not trust in the gizmos. Tools are great, but you have to know what to make with them.

Well said, couldn’t agree more!

[Manateeman]

Gizmo is not what we are discussing. We sailed before any radio on the boat never mind gps. Kinda enjoyed the additional help. You are correct, one begins with basic sound seamanship but clearly, technology can and has proven its value. That’s the subject of the thread.
Mark

[Cavalier MK2]

Might be time for that sheet release before you broach or broach on the subject....

Gizmo definition from Collins Dictionary.
"A gizmo is a device or small machine that performs a particular task, usually in a new and efficient way "

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Well the tech solution for Rob's storm cell would be emergency alert weather on a variety of media- radio ,phones, radar velocity alarm etc.... .

Not everywhere has a weather bureau let alone cell phone coverage
Not all boats have radar.
Plus these sort of storms are very localised
We have been hit by similar yet a mile away boats got nothing.

We had a weather eye, could see the buildup in the afternoon from the south and strong northerlies sucking it up all day so the boat was prepared.
Others in the area were clueless.

[toolbar]

I am interested in building something along the lines of the Upsideup or the ACS mentioned above for my private use.

The component I am least sure about is the actuator needed to release the sheets. I could only think of using a Harken cleat mounted on a hinge, that is held closed until the mechanism is triggered (a very similar solution as offered by both companies).

Something simple like a door lock solenoid https://www.google.com/search?q=door...=lnms&tbm=isch could hold the plate down and release it - but I couldn't find anything rated IP65.

How would you build something like this?

Paul

[Chotu]

Hmmm. Rob’s video confuses me a bit.

It doesn’t just all of a sudden turn into that. You can see “weather” developing in the distance. The only time that can sneak up on you is if you’re already sailing in bad weather and it worsens without visibility to see it. Reefing should have happened in that case.

I need some “training wheels” for my boat with a big, powerful rig and little weight too. A good thread to follow.

[Manateeman]

There are no training wheels. Cats flip. Usually a total loss. That’s the risk and one of the reasons I started the thread.
Sticking your head out the hatch “occasionally “ doesn’t seem to work .
Look at the excellent credentials of some of the sailors.
Fast, powerful cat ...faster any boat = faster into trouble.
Big = larger forces. Sometimes equals less time to recover.
If you feel the need for speed, you pay one way or the other.
We believe some technology will help.
The M crew.