Another rare 56' Aerorig cat (Hughes design) for sale

[SVNeko]

For me, the fact that he analyzes boats only financially - it's all about resale value and if it's priced right - tells all. That's a horribly depressing way to view this sport and I think why so many are objecting here. Boats are a terrible investment and most owners find intrinsic value in how their boat appeals to them that goes beyond dollars and cents. If you don't get that you end up comparing one-off Hughes designs to Lagoons.


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[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Yes, you will find the occasional story of a massively overpriced boat that sells the next day but that's dumb luck not a sound sales strategy.

But if it sold, then by definition it wasn't overpriced!

And getting the maximum price possible for what you sell is a pretty sound strategy IMO.

This all depends on the seller's situation. If he's desperate to sell then the price needs to be such that it attracts a quick sale. If he's not in any hurry he can afford to wait until the right buyer - one who sees the value in the boat - comes along.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But if it sold, then by definition it wasn't overpriced!

And getting the maximum price possible for what you sell is a pretty sound strategy IMO.

This all depends on the seller's situation. If he's desperate to sell then the price needs to be such that it attracts a quick sale. If he's not in any hurry he can afford to wait until the right buyer - one who sees the value in the boat - comes along.

You missed my point. I was talking about using a single comparable sale that is wildly inconsistent with other comparable sales to justify the high price as people often do one these types of threads. If you overprice your boat and it sells, good for you. Likewise, buy a lottery ticket and win a million dollars good for you. Neither is a sound financial decision, you just won in spite of doing something dumb.

Quick sale arguments go out the window by 6months not 6 years. At 6yrs, it either not really for sale or it' unreasonably priced. I'll give the seller the benefit of the doubt that he would like to sell it, so it's clearly overpriced.

Also at some point carrying costs come into play. Every year, he has to pay storage, maintenance and other costs to keep the boat up. Every year, depreciation eats into the price someone would be willing to pay.
- If you are talking waiting 12 months instead of 6 months, it's a minor issue if you can get 20-30% more.
- If it's 6yrs...that a lot of ongoing costs you will never recover (often 30-50% of the boats value) and at some point a lot of boats develop issues from neglect that drastically reduce their value even further.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You missed my point. I was talking about using a single comparable sale that is wildly inconsistent with other comparable sales to justify the high price as people often do one these types of threads. If you overprice your boat and it sells, good for you. Likewise, buy a lottery ticket and win a million dollars good for you. Neither is a sound financial decision, you just won in spite of doing something dumb.

.

Alternately, be "smart" like you, and have no chance of winning....

[ranchero76]

There's another thing which many people don't realize (a specially, if they been traveling for years).
World changed, and, unfortunately, not for better. Corporations are taking on the world, changing way of the people thinking, changing everything. Everything became "disposable", one time use. That includes expensive things like cars, they made out of flimsy plastic, made to survive just until warranty ends. And people get used to it. They think it's normal, nobody will pay premium for 15 years old car, which built better and last longer. Anything "custom", "hand built" still exist, but it's now for very few odd people.
Same thinking applies to anything else. Maybe some of you know, well known couple traveling on RV, "Gone with Wynns", recently bought the cat. Before they bought, as I see it, they knew way less about boats than I know right now. You know what was on their checklist? (from my head, I hope I remember correctly)

1. It has to have no charter history (for me, real condition is more important)
2. As new as possible
3. They didn't even consider looking at any custom cats (judging by boats they've checked)
4. As close as possible - they didn't seem to be willing to travel a lot to buy a boat.

And I think, it's pretty standard thinking of people today. To be "different", to deal with custom boats, older boats - well it's getting harder than ever.

Now, I am different, I'm driving van with diesel conversion, I never pay for repair or maintenance of anything I have (well, almost), I know how to fix and fabricate things etc. etc. But I'm not a sailor. I'm not emotionally attached to sails, that's why I'd love to try new technology things like wingsail or solar propulsion. For me sailboat is just the way of getting from point a to point b. Adventure is trip itself, ability to see many countries and beautiful places, and still have little home with me. So, while for "mainstream" people custom boat purchase is out of question, I could theoretically look at these. But there comes my checklist. I respect custom boat designers and their work, I respect these who had built custom boats, but "unbelievable quality of craftsmanship", "designed by reputable designer" is not on the list.
Items on the checklist:
1. Flybridge
2. As new as possible
3. As big as possible, to be able to carry jetski and other stuff I might want
4. Modern cabinetry (that's also function of #2)
5. Big solar array. None of the boats I've seen for sale had one, so this I'll have to create myself.
6. Hydraulic dinghy lift
7. Beaching ability
8. Modern electronics

So, above I've described two thinking strategies - mainstream (Gone with Wynns), and more technologically advanced (mine). Of course, there are people who interested in custom boats, who's building and buying them. But as I see it, there are not many buyers for this custom stuff nowadays, and this fact certainly effects price and resale value of custom boats. Sorry, if I touched anyone's feelings again.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Alternately, be "smart" like you, and have no chance of winning....

Sounds a lot like the lotto ads: You can't win if you don't play.

A suckers bet if there ever was one.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

There's another thing which many people don't realize (a specially, if they been traveling for years).
World changed, and, unfortunately, not for better. Corporations are taking on the world, changing way of the people thinking, changing everything. Everything became "disposable", one time use. That includes expensive things like cars, they made out of flimsy plastic, made to survive just until warranty ends. And people get used to it. They think it's normal, nobody will pay premium for 15 years old car, which built better and last longer. Anything "custom", "hand built" still exist, but it's now for very few odd people.
Same thinking applies to anything else. May be some of you know, well known couple traveling on RV, "Gone with Wynns", recently bought the cat. Before they bought, as I see it, they knew way less about boats than I know right now. You know what was on their checklist? (from my head, I hope I remember correctly)

1. It has to have no charter history (for me, real condition is more important)
2. As new as possible
3. They didn't even consider looking at any custom cats (judging by boats they've checked)
4. As close as possible - they didn't seem to be willing to travel a lot to buy a boat.

And I think, it's pretty standard thinking of people today. To be "different", to deal with custom boats, older boats - well it's getting harder than ever.

Now, I am different, I'm driving van with diesel conversion, I never pay for repair or maintenance of anything I have (well, almost), I know how to fix and fabricate things etc. etc. But I'm not a sailor. I'm not emotionally attached to sails, that's why I'd love to try new technology things like wingsail or solar propulsion. For me sailboat is just the way of getting from point a to point b. Adventure is trip itself, ability to see many countries and beautiful places, and still have little home with me. So, while for "mainstream" people custom boat purchase is out of question, I could theoretically look at these. But there comes my checklist. I respect custom boat designers and their work, I respect these who had built custom boats, but "unbelievable quality of craftsmanship", "designed by reputable designer" is not on the list.
Items on the checklist:
1. Flybridge
2. As new as possible
3. As big as possible, to be able to carry jetski and other stuff I might want
4. Modern cabinetry (that's also function of #2)
5. Big solar array. None of the boats I've seen for sale had one, so this I'll have to create myself.
6. Hydraulic dinghy lift
7. Beaching ability

So, above I've described two thinking strategies - mainstream (Gone with Wynns), and more technologically advanced (mine). Of course, there are people who interested in custom boats, who's building and buying them. But as I see it, there are not many buyers for this custom stuff nowadays, and this fact certainly effects price and resale value of custom boats. Sorry, if I touched anyone's feelings again.

Requiring flybridge and your price range you are stuck with Lagoon. No need to look further. Buy one.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by downunder

Requiring flybridge and your price range you are stuck with Lagoon. No need to look further. Buy one.

Not so. There are at least Sanya 57 and Leopard 58 (and few older boats) in same price range. Bad thing is that I want some features from each of them.
All of them worth more than I'm willing to pay right now, but prices will come down by the time I will get ready That's another point to consider - sellers of these boats not emotionally attached to them, that means price often reflects just fair market value and nothing else.

I forgot to mention one more point on checklist
9. Ability to re-sale it within reasonable period of time in the future, taking as little loss as possible (I know there will be big loss, but anyway)

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

All of them worth more than I'm willing to pay right now, but prices will come down by the time I will get ready

Just like the price of fuel and groceries will come down

The market (N. American market in particular) is climbing out of the hole it has been in for the past 8 years. I wouldn't expect prices in general to be coming down at any time in the foreseeable future.

I suggest, for your edification, you should go look at a couple boats that are "in your price range" so you start to see what you can really expect to get.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

SNIP

Also at some point carrying costs come into play. Every year, he has to pay

SNIP

The point carrying costs come into play is the day you buy the boat. If you are living on the boat or using the boat no one would doubt the carrying costs are justified. I looked at a couple of Telstars before I bought my Seawind. One was for sale by a family who inherited the boat when the father died. They were begging me for an offer. Clearly they did not view the carrying costs as being justified. On the other hand if someone is living on or using a boat that is for sale they may well view the carrying costs as being justified and reject low ball offers.

Sure it is possible to find super deals; especially if the owner died and the family wants to get rid of a boat and has no idea what the market price point is. But these deals are few and far between.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sounds a lot like the lotto ads: You can't win if you don't play.

A suckers bet if there ever was one.

Maybe a sucker's bet, but also a simple statement of fact.


I doubt if the people who win feel like suckers.

[44'cruisingcat]

The reality of used boat pricing is simply supply vs demand.


With a production boat, the value of a used boat is pretty much dictated by the new price. A used boat almost certainly can't sell for more than the price of a new one. (Although there are possible exceptions, in the case of something highly sought after with long waiting lists.)


With custom or one offs, pricing isn't so simple. Supply might be limited to just the one boat. Demand might be zero, or there may be several or many potential buyers.


Comparing a custom boat to a production boat unless they are very similar, has little relevance IMO.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Just like the price of fuel and groceries will come down

The market (N. American market in particular) is climbing out of the hole it has been in for the past 8 years. I wouldn't expect prices in general to be coming down at any time in the foreseeable future.

I suggest, for your edification, you should go look at a couple boats that are "in your price range" so you start to see what you can really expect to get.

I'm judging by prices of older Laogons, FP, Leopards of this size, 8-12 years old. Not all but many of them are reasonably priced.
And unlike "Gone with Wynns" I'm not looking for boat that doesn't require any work. Instead, I'm looking for boat that needs minor repairs which I could handle myself, with appropriate discount.
When I will see boat that I like "in my price range" I definitely will check it . It might as well go in different direction - old Lagoons and FP in no way getting more expensive, but my assets are Somewhere they will meet for sure

[neilpride]

One is entitled to ask.
The other is entitled to offer.
So, I don't see any problem if the broker or owner ask a billion $$$ for this particular multi, I call this sound the flute, or throwing the cane and see if a fool bite the hook,,in my book also it called someone who does not want to sell one thing... who know..