Advise on Catamaran for extended cruising

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by ausaviator

You said that FP are balsa? Doesn't say that on their website.

The TPI Lagoons were balsa from my recollection but I was not aware of any other Lagoon in recent times being balsa below the waterline.

That wasn't me, that was "tuskie".

I read a yacht test that states the FP Lucia 40 is blasa cored, but I doubt that this is true.

Edit: FP stresses not using balsa on their website
https://www.fountainepajot.com.au/about-us/technology/



Our previous boat (FP Mahe) was solid below waterline and foam above. This is my preferred build concept, but as you can see I now have a Lagoon 380. All boats are compromises


Balsa is no issue as long as its encapsulated (=dry) but can be a big mess if it gets wet.
Penetrations are the key issue here.
Best approach is to do no penetrations in the cored area at all, second best is to do them all in the uncored area, next is to do the penetrations by removing the core around the penetration and replacing it with epoxy.
The last and worst alternative is to drill just through the cored area and seal with some sikaflex.

So how does Lagoon fare? At least for the 380 it depends...
The Lagoon 380 standard version has no penetrations in the cored areas at all. All penetrations have been considered in the build, and are outside the cored area.

However some options require penetrations, and these are just drilled and sealed. The only issues I found on my boat are the hardtop bimni frame and the bow seats. Each of these leaked into the core, but just a few centimeter wide so easy to repair: remove core, fill with epoxy, drill new hole

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Thalas

I know this board can get snarky and I in no way mean this as a snarky question, but according to the statement from the family, they set sail into Cyclone Bansi and encountered winds in excess of 112mph. Is it your assessment as a sailor that the Leopard forward cockpit was the problem and that other cats would have been ok in these conditions? Can you imagine the windage on a flybridge Lagoon in those winds? Are all Gunboats not seaworthy because a cocky owner deliberately took his out in a storm?

While most Leopards are now shipped for financial reasons, they used to do crossings all the time just to get to their owners. Your opinion of their abilities doesn’t seem fair based on the facts.

And yet I'm entitled to my opinion and given no one knows what happened in that cyclone it's just as fair as another's-

Having been in enough weather to have green water over the bows and see how important a tramp area is in shedding all that weight quickly there is no way I would ever compromise that design aspect if I'm looking for an offshore cat as the op is.

If this particular 44 was in a situation where it was regularly taking green water into that cockpit the extra tonne or more of sudden weight forward would have had a detrimental effect to stability. Of that there is no doubt.

It is an increase in survivability risk plain and simple just a matter of opinion how much. For me if I'm heading into a storm with my family the last thing I want to add to the list of concerns is whether I'm about to put a coastal designed cat into a situation it's not designed for ( no matter what the marketing blurb says about older and safer leopards being sail delivered)

And btw if it wasn't a concern to others they wouldn't have designed a canvas tonneu to try and mitigate this risk after market. Trouble is in a storm I'm not sure how long a bit of canvas can keep out tonnes of water for.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Want2cruz

I take it balsa core is bad?

No not per se. The main issue is solid glass below water line is preferable ( stronger more solid in impacts) Either balsa or foam composite above.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by tuskie

And Fountaine Pajot and Lagoon have joined them! Balsa core below the waterline.

I went to the FP factory, for the Helia 44, and Lagoon factory, for the Lagoon 450, in 2014.

The Helia 44 had balsa until the keel, under the waterline.
The Lagoon 450 had balsa until the waterline.

I bought the 450.

The factories may have changed their ways now but that's what I saw in 2014.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Want2cruz

I have looked at the fps, and the Lagoons, but not the Leopards so much.

I have noticed a lot of makers have highly-raked forward windows, which seem to be pointless as they must let a lot of heat from the sun in, and are at
such an angle as to make looking forward difficult?

Don't let the more aerodynamic saloons put you off per se. Visibility is better not worse and as for the sun see pic of my last boat below. Best of both worlds imho - sails well when underway and when anchored far cooler than vertical saloon due to double layer.

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by Barra

And yet I'm entitled to my opinion and given no one knows what happened in that cyclone it's just as fair as another's-

Having been in enough weather to have green water over the bows and see how important a tramp area is in shedding all that weight quickly there is no way I would ever compromise that design aspect if I'm looking for an offshore cat as the op is.

If this particular 44 was in a situation where it was regularly taking green water into that cockpit the extra tonne or more of sudden weight forward would have had a detrimental effect to stability. Of that there is no doubt.

It is an increase in survivability risk plain and simple just a matter of opinion how much. For me if I'm heading into a storm with my family the last thing I want to add to the list of concerns is whether I'm about to put a coastal designed cat into a situation it's not designed for ( no matter what the marketing blurb says about older and safer leopards being sail delivered)

And btw if it wasn't a concern to others they wouldn't have designed a canvas tonneu to try and mitigate this risk after market. Trouble is in a storm I'm not sure how long a bit of canvas can keep out tonnes of water for.

I notice you did not answer the direct question of " Is it your assessment as a sailor that the Leopard forward cockpit was the problem and that other cats would have been ok in these conditions?"

I too wonder about this issue but the more I see of this version of Leopard catamarans cruising the less I worry

[Barra]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

I notice you did not answer the direct question of " Is it your assessment as a sailor that the Leopard forward cockpit was the problem and that other cats would have been ok in these conditions?"

I too wonder about this issue but the more I see of this version of Leopard catamarans cruising the less I worry

sorry i thought i had - no one knows. But YES the risk of this design pitchpoling or taking large amounts of water into the saloon in a storm is higher than those without these areas forward and open to the saloon.

Of course the adage goes "its not a problem till its a problem" and thats the case for these cockpits IMHO. I just dont want to be in a situation where its filling with water while im 1000miles from shore and my last thought is my choice of boat has just put my family at higher risk than they would have been otherwise.

each to their own.

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Barra

sorry i thought i had - no one knows. But YES the risk of this design pitchpoling or taking large amounts of water into the saloon in a storm is higher than those without these areas forward and open to the saloon.

Of course the adage goes "its not a problem till its a problem" and thats the case for these cockpits IMHO. I just dont want to be in a situation where its filling with water while im 1000miles from shore and my last thought is my choice of boat has just put my family at higher risk than they would have been otherwise.

each to their own.

Pretty sure Chris White might question your assertions.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Pretty sure Chris White might question your assertions.

nah they are completely different boats - look at the pics of a 44 forward cockpit vs an atlantic (which actually is a cockpit) and which i would have no probs taking anywhere ( but i would be pretty mindful of sailplan )

[ausaviator]

I'm interested that you went from a FP Mahe to a L380. Would like to hear more on that move some time.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Barra

And yet I'm entitled to my opinion and given no one knows what happened in that cyclone it's just as fair as another's-

Having been in enough weather to have green water over the bows and see how important a tramp area is in shedding all that weight quickly there is no way I would ever compromise that design aspect if I'm looking for an offshore cat as the op is.

If this particular 44 was in a situation where it was regularly taking green water into that cockpit the extra tonne or more of sudden weight forward would have had a detrimental effect to stability. Of that there is no doubt.

It is an increase in survivability risk plain and simple just a matter of opinion how much. For me if I'm heading into a storm with my family the last thing I want to add to the list of concerns is whether I'm about to put a coastal designed cat into a situation it's not designed for ( no matter what the marketing blurb says about older and safer leopards being sail delivered)

And btw if it wasn't a concern to others they wouldn't have designed a canvas tonneu to try and mitigate this risk after market. Trouble is in a storm I'm not sure how long a bit of canvas can keep out tonnes of water for.

I know Ive quoted this before but the Leopard 44 cockpit holds 735 gallons or about 6,129 pounds in weight. I wonder if the design team took this stat into mind when they designed the load carrying capacity.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by smj

I know Ive quoted this before but the Leopard 44 cockpit holds 735 gallons or about 6,129 pounds in weight. I wonder if the design team took this stat into mind when they designed the load carrying capacity.

There is also another thread which discuses these issues
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ea-192653.html

[Lance Reynolds]

Hi Cruzin, seems like you are onto a couple of the wrong aspects of the charter breed of Cats.
You have not mentioned any performance requirements and if you have an ambition for sailing up wind to any degree the fat hulled low bridge deck clearance slugs will soon become annoying .Lagoons Leapards etc.
I have sailed with these apartment type boats and unless there is considerable wind on the beam at least they tend to need to motor sail to achieve a decent course .
I have found your post as I was about to repist a. AD for my Whitehaven 11.8 m (39 foots) performance cruising Cat .
She has a well balanced rig easy dagger board adjustment and points like a dream .high aspect ratio hulls and not made of ridiculous polyester.
Her helm is exceptional centralky located under a hard top bimini and allows a full 360 degree view during watches.
Only hassle for you she is on the hard in Thailand after a major refit .her price would give you half for budget for the fun things .
Remember there are different definitions in purchasing in eespect to what you Want and actually What you need .
My first requirement in all my crujsing Cats has been pisitive bouancy folliwed by performance then comforts for us a cruising couple .
Besides my plug here there would be plenty of appropriate Australian designs .
It seems I cant post a photo atm of my boat but if you can message me I can give you more info .
Right now the slow Cat owners are sharpenni g there pencils to stab me haha good luck .
A long time ago we sailed the reverse from Hawaii to Seattle in a slow half boat , never again will I subject ourselves to the rolling .
Cats rule buddy.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by rom

ok ... how many Broadblue are circumnavigating ? How many FP, lagoon, leopards etc ... are circumnavigating ? Their website: "Broadblue World Leader in Luxury Cruising and Performance Catamarans". yes, for sure. Are you selling something ?

No I am not selling anything and have no connection with them nor do I own one!
I said they are designed for cruising rather than charter. The OP wanted info on seaworthy cats. They are the follow on from Prouts which are also cruising cats and can be found all round the world.

[Lance Reynolds]

Here are a couple of shots of my Whitehaven 11.8m cruising Cat.
She sails in 5 knots of wind I tend to keep the cruising speed just around 10 knots .
I dont think the Lagoons because of their low hull aspect ratios can even get that fast .
Epoxy encapsulated Western Red Cedar built to last a life time and will not absorb water or crack .
Glassed in composite forebeam with intergrated cat walk .
No bolt on Aluminium here.
For sale now Jan 2018.