Advice on Trimarans

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Adam T

IMHO folding tris are marketing


Tris cannot be cheaper then cats similar size.

While a bit of a pain to fold, it was a blessing to be able to fold our Corsair 36 and lift out onto the trailer in a marina that couldn't haul anything over 21' wide. Storing a 10.5' rig was much more appealing to them as well!

Regards,

[Trimaran Ken]

Originally Posted by Adam T

IMHO folding tris are marketing
Tris cannot be cheaper then cats similar size.

It's not about the money, it's about what it can do.

We've sailed many places that we could have never been to without using a trailer.

Living in New England and spending 6 weeks a year in FL is something we would never be able to do without a folding tri. No way we could (or would) spend a month each way on the ICW.

Also been through drawbridges too narrow to fit unless 1/2 folded. Also been to marinas with no place to park a cat or unfolded tri.

If all this is marketing, marketing works.

Ken
F-31 Ultimate Cruiser

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by Adam T

IMHO folding tris are marketing

snip.

That's just BS trash talk.

There are practical reasons for folding tris, kick-up rudders and kick-up centerboards. I'm not marketing anything and the reasons should be obvious to anyone who's ever grounded a keel or rudder, been told they need to pay 1.5x or 2x for a slip or boatyard storage, they are too wide to be hauled, or no space available.

This is my 3rd tri since 2001. I've owned our DF1200 for 10 years and it is a joy to sail, comfortable, and blue water capable (I know of several Atlantic crossings made by sister boats). It intelligently incorporates design compromises (all boats do) and is designed as a cruising tri. I consider it ideal as a coastal cruiser, which is what I use it for. We safely sail in the teens when conditions are right and can go offshore with confidence. The mast height is 64' with appendages (perfect for ICW) and with our kick-up rudder/CB the worst thing that happens in a soft grounding is we lose some bottom paint (I do worry about a hard grounding).

Its cabin has less volume than an equal length mono or cat, but has adequate space for our use. At anchor in several days of bad weather I may get cabin fever and long for a bigger heavier boat with air conditioning/genset, etc. but that feeling quickly evaporates when I sail my boat (or sail a condomaran or mono lead-sled).

Nothing sails like a tri. Again, all boats incorporate design and build compromises, but when it comes to sailing -- Trimaran owners are spoiled.

[Training Wheels]

Nice to see some other tri sailors coming out!

[SailFastTri]

One other thing to add -- even though a tri has less cabin volume, there's space in the amas for things like specialty sails, fenders, dinghy anchors, laundry bags, recycling/trash bags, hoses, empty jugs, folding bikes, paddles, boat hooks, etc.... anything that takes up space but you don't want or need in the main cabin. Amas are not for high density heavy stuff though; which should be kept near the boat's center or left ashore

[20KnotBrain]

Aloha,

I recently sailed a Corsair Trimaran from San Diego to Honolulu. The boat sailed like a champ and took on 15ft seas and 35kt winds on more than one day. We reefed at night but still managed to fall off the face of a steep wave and burry her up to the mast in near pitch black conditions. The bow popped right back up and kept sailing without a second thought.

I’ll agree with anyone who appreciates how a trimaran sails compared to a Cat. There’s much more feedback. Corsairs are geared towards performance so speed didn’t disappoint either. In strong winds we even ran wing-on-wing with a double reefed main because it a comfortable point of sail, pointed us in the right direction, and we still maintained 12 knots.

Check out my crossing video: https://youtu.be/wSz_0s5CuOs

Mahalo,

Captain Nick
Owner/Operator
cruisetheisland.com

[maddocmuc]

I have sailed a Neel 45 on several occasions (chartered one) It is an absolute dream, even in rough conditions. I have sailed many ships and I am spoiled now.
Movie from our vacation with lots of photos from the ship

[Cat_sailor]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

Ok Im getting really Intrigued by trimarans. I know I have an upgrade my lagoon thread, but its all cat talk. I wanted to keep this seperate so I can retain the knowledge in one post.

Firstly, Trimarans are HEAPs lighter for there given size.

Im looking at a Corsair 37 and its half the weight of the Seawinf 1060.

Now clearly with these smaller models you have basically the centre hull for everything, pretty much. That doesnt bother me as I like to sail by myself or with spearfishing friends, 1-3 crew.

I know they heal a bit more for obvious reasons, but how easy are they to flip compared to a Catamarn, for some reason I have it in my head they look easy to capsize. But surely if you reef in a blow and sail to the conditions they cant be that bad or they wouldnt be popular?

Speedwise, given they are half the weight, are the fairly easy to sail in slight winds both up and down wind?

They are super cheap to comparable sized cats.

Is there more I need to know before going down this route and looking around?

The one thing I dont like is no cockpit coverage.

So they make better coastal sail boats than blue water?

thank you for your patience and guidance.

Trimarans capsize more often than cats.

I was thinking about the capsize statistics and thought of this article, one of few that actually have some scientific backup. Not just rumors, it basically states trimarans has a higher chance of capsizing than catamarans.

https://www.catamaranfreedom.com/why...for-beginners/

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Cat_sailor

Trimarans capsize more often than cats.

I was thinking about the capsize statistics and thought of this article, one of few that actually have some scientific backup. Not just rumors, it basically states trimarans has a higher chance of capsizing than catamarans.

https://www.catamaranfreedom.com/why...for-beginners/

Is this the line you are referring to?

Breaking waves with a height equivalent to the beam of a catamaran, half the beam of a trimaran, may be sufficient to cause a capsize.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cat_sailor

Trimarans capsize more often than cats.

I was thinking about the capsize statistics and thought of this article, one of few that actually have some scientific backup. Not just rumors, it basically states trimarans has a higher chance of capsizing than catamarans.

https://www.catamaranfreedom.com/why...for-beginners/

https://shuttleworthdesign.com/NESTalk.html

[snort]

Originally Posted by smj

https://shuttleworthdesign.com/NESTalk.html

Now that's an interesting read! Thanks for the link.

[Cat_sailor]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Is this the line you are referring to?

I was thinking about the scientific articles that are referenced in the article. Some studies of cats and tris during small scale testing.

[owly]

It is interesting that people are so obsessed with capsizing multihulls... The reality is that for most of us capsize is outside the realm of real world probability. Clearly if you are doing voyaging in one of the older narrow full decked cats that tend to be have a beam often less than 50% of length, it should be a serious consideration. Even many of those have crossed oceans. I believe the Oceanic 30 was the first to round the horn. You can read about it in The Children of The Horn by Rosie Swale. With an overall beam of only 15'4". I personally feel that the modern beams approaching 66%.. often around 20' for a 30' boat make them nearly bullet proof. Read the story of the famous Queen's Birthday Storm in the Tasman Sea. Monohulls were rolled and sank.... cats were abandoned and later found virtually undamaged. The story of Ramtha (A Simpson) in that storm is a classic. Not a single cat was rolled or sunk by that storm. Richard Woods writes about his experience off the coast of Central America in a very violent storm in Eclipse. They abandoned the boat, and it was later found intact. In another case a Wharram was in a typhoon in the Indian Ocean... the damage was a broken beam... mast beam I think... but they made it in. Then there was the Gunboat 55 Rainmaker lost in a violent storm in the Gulf Stream .... abandoned due to rudder failure...... Later found awash and dismasted but essentially intact, and right side up.
Multis are far less subject to dismasting due to the bracing angles, and the fact that they almost never get knocked down or capsized. They take better care of their crews, they tend to move away from the seas instead of standing there and taking a beating like a monohull with a deep heavy keel.

They make the news when they do capsize... monohulls do not because they are often overwhelmed and sink where a multihull stays on the surface.... The ocean floor is littered with sunken monohulls. Most multihulls that do capsize are in some kind of racing, and/or their crew are pushing them to the outer limits, and racing puts them in the news automatically.


To me the whole thing is a non issue except in so far as training their crews to reef when they should because you do not have heel to signal that you are carrying too much sail. When a cat heels, you have already pushed it much too far.


Things have changed dramatically in the multihull world since Sports Illustrated wrote their famous article Hey Ho and Up She Rises in 1968...It was deeply biased and inaccurate then, it's downright laughable today......it's still a fun read though. Enjoy:



https://vault.si.com/vault/1968/05/0...d-up-she-rises

[Cat_sailor]

Originally Posted by owly

It is interesting that people are so obsessed with capsizing multihulls... The reality is that for most of us capsize is outside the realm of real world probability. Clearly if you are doing voyaging in one of the older narrow full decked cats that tend to be have a beam often less than 50% of length, it should be a serious consideration. Even many of those have crossed oceans. I believe the Oceanic 30 was the first to round the horn. You can read about it in The Children of The Horn by Rosie Swale. With an overall beam of only 15'4". I personally feel that the modern beams approaching 66%.. often around 20' for a 30' boat make them nearly bullet proof. Read the story of the famous Queen's Birthday Storm in the Tasman Sea. Monohulls were rolled and sank.... cats were abandoned and later found virtually undamaged. The story of Ramtha (A Simpson) in that storm is a classic. Not a single cat was rolled or sunk by that storm. Richard Woods writes about his experience off the coast of Central America in a very violent storm in Eclipse. They abandoned the boat, and it was later found intact. In another case a Wharram was in a typhoon in the Indian Ocean... the damage was a broken beam... mast beam I think... but they made it in. Then there was the Gunboat 55 Rainmaker lost in a violent storm in the Gulf Stream .... abandoned due to rudder failure...... Later found awash and dismasted but essentially intact, and right side up.
Multis are far less subject to dismasting due to the bracing angles, and the fact that they almost never get knocked down or capsized. They take better care of their crews, they tend to move away from the seas instead of standing there and taking a beating like a monohull with a deep heavy keel.

They make the news when they do capsize... monohulls do not because they are often overwhelmed and sink where a multihull stays on the surface.... The ocean floor is littered with sunken monohulls. Most multihulls that do capsize are in some kind of racing, and/or their crew are pushing them to the outer limits, and racing puts them in the news automatically.


To me the whole thing is a non issue except in so far as training their crews to reef when they should because you do not have heel to signal that you are carrying too much sail. When a cat heels, you have already pushed it much too far.


Things have changed dramatically in the multihull world since Sports Illustrated wrote their famous article Hey Ho and Up She Rises in 1968...It was deeply biased and inaccurate then, it's downright laughable today......it's still a fun read though. Enjoy:



https://vault.si.com/vault/1968/05/0...d-up-she-rises

I like the argument and i understand the logic. But we are still treading the water of anecdotal evidence. I would be nice to see some more studies like the one i reference above, I'm pretty sure insurance companies and manufactures should have that info, right?

[Saline]

Regarding the English study, it is a shame that they didn't separate low volume ama Tris and high volume ones in their conclusions.
The high volume ama Tris showed very favorably (only one capsize in beam on breaking waves); designers moved away from low volume amas a long time ago. The scientists didn't draw conclusions on charter cats by studying relatively narrow beamed, deep vee hull Wharrams, so let's not do the equivalent for Tris.
That being said, having this information doesn't mean that all older Tris should be dry docked. It just means that skippers can't raft or sail aggressively in survival situations - they need to look at anchors/drogues whenever the monohullers start pulling theirs out. They have offsetting considerations (such as being able to be heeled over to 60 degrees in a blow allowing for less rigging stress and being a safety fuse in squally conditions that can lead to wind capsize in cats as described in the Woods link).
Regarding the 50% of beam in cats vs. 30% in tris, remember that for a given cost/materials/interior (except for maybe the Neels), a trimaran will be longer, and for a given length, a trimaran will be wider, so they may come out pretty closely in like for like.