Advice on the Schionning 1750

[WildFireAus]

Originally Posted by blubaju

Wonder if niecy is still around, long time no comment ;-)

Hello Niecy,

Ok, I am a poor guy and had to build my Wilderness 1320 myself. My wife did not want to build another catamaran, but I could not find a builder I'd trust, I do not even trust myself. I had to build it myself again ;-)

Yes, Schionnings are lightweight, in building stage I called it flexiboat, the CE-versions for Europe are considerably heavier. Might be a reason, if needed, I do not know, for now, watered 2010, I did not see any structural problem. Hardest test so far, Philippines to the Spice Islands & back, most time 5Bft, 40 to 45°, a quite choppy ride, no defect, part of the Indonesian rally, we started 24h later and arrived in the middle of the fleet ;-) Now this is your much smaller brother, the 1320 Wilderness.

The dancing pole, as the 2 other poles in your saloon, you need them, the roof is to soft without support if someone walks up there.

My interior is printed wood imitation on glasfiberfabric and formica on the working surface. Can not be more lightweight. No lumber on the entire ship, uups, a Western RedCedar-trimming around the tables. Balsa, Honeycomb and Carbon the main construction materials, even rudder posts are Carbon

Looking at the picture of your dream 1750 I did not see a clear picture of bow or heck touching the water. Download a plan from Schionnings webside and compare where bow and heck touch actually the water and ask about the actual content of water, fuel and other stuff. To me it seems the cargo allowance was already used up for woodworks, bathrooms etc. We used even plastic faucets.

No washing machine I have seen on the equipment list, do not buy one, but go for a good 1400rpm or faster spinner! a fraction of weight and cost, in tropics you do not have so many cloths to wash and they aren't dirty. Washing mashine have a concrete block inside! Really!

Learning how to sail? Are you really new to sailing? Then I'd strongly suggest learn it on a small open boat, I sailed hobbie cat and nacra before building my first 47 catamaran. You get much faster a better feeling for the wind. Until a 17m yacht reacts, it takes time, even a Schionning - and capsizing a Hobbie is fun! Unless you turtletopped you do not have enough feeling, but not with the big one of course.

You might have noticed, I went smaller, from 47ft to 42ft, everything much easier to handle, I would not like to go smaller for the bridgedeck clearance.

ok., don't want to bother you more, in case any questions, feel free to ask

Wow the way I read your contribution it indicates you have built 2 catamarans. If I have understood you correctly that's amazing, just amazing! COngratulations!!! We are 4.5 years into our first build GForce 17C and should launch in about 3 months - fingers crossed - and never again! I was super intrigued by your printed wood imitation glass fiber fabric. Where did you get that from? Are you able to post a pic of what that looks like. Sounds very interesting. Thanks heaps.
Gaye

[Morph]

Yes!!! I'd love to know where you found the printed wood glass fibre too! bogging and sanding ceilings is just pure torture.... anything to make it quicker and easier!

[WildFireAus]

Originally Posted by Morph

Yes!!! I'd love to know where you found the printed wood glass fibre too! bogging and sanding ceilings is just pure torture.... anything to make it quicker and easier!

Hey Morph not sure if you are building or repairing, but we are lining our ceilings with 10ml foam and vinyl and walls with 3ml foam and vinyl. This is for the cabins and saloon area. Don't know if that will help you.
cheers
Gaye

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by Morph

Yes!!! I'd love to know where you found the printed wood glass fibre too! bogging and sanding ceilings is just pure torture.... anything to make it quicker and easier!

I bought them at Polymer Products in Manila, guess this will not help you much, sorry. I learned about that stuff when I visited their showroom, since then I know, the most beautiful Carbonfiber laid is only camouflage ;-)

Here one with samples, seems wood design is a side job only:
http://stealthveils.com/woodgrains.html

But it might give you an idea what to search for.
What is nice, this material is perfect for smooth corners, eg forming a mobboard in one setup with the floor. Sure, it will never mach a 1/2" hardwood floor. I did not use it on walls, only for the floors.

Another hint for those who like, IMHO shredded coconut shell is the best antislip. Nice texture and it will not sag in the can or tray, smooth to feet and dirt-cheap. Over the years I tried almost everything, from International to sand. Production: rotary rasper in an electric drill.

Happy building - do not forget, the designers "light weight" does not reflect any needs of the Admiral ;-)

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by WildFireAus

Hey Morph not sure if you are building or repairing, but we are lining our ceilings with 10ml foam and vinyl and walls with 3ml foam and vinyl. This is for the cabins and saloon area. Don't know if that will help you.
cheers
Gaye

Beautiful, I am sure, but is it in your construction plan? It was not in my Schionning plan - that means, before you glue it on, weigh it, weigh the glue and deduct from your payload!

I know, this sounds very odd, guess why I build a second boat!
By the way, in some hardware stores the carry acrylic mirror plates, much lighter than glass. Perfect for Schionnings - there is no mirror in the plans too!

Even the waterheater, yes, I have, but not in the "light weight" included. This is really a barebone number. Everything beautiful or deemed necessary goes from your payload! 2000kg for my Wilderness. We carry 2x100m 1x16m chain plus 2 Buegel, 1 Delta (good for farmers, but rests so nicely in its holder, no, joke only, I keep it for the rocks), 1 Guardian(better bcs bigger as Fortress for same price) plus plenty ropes! All that almost 400kg weight is not in any building plan! Why? sailing from mooring to mooring or marina to marina you do not need it. Do YOU need it? I do not trust any rope on our reefs ...

Now I am not blaming the Schionnings, this is industry standard, nobody knows what you or I think we must have, some people washing Maschine plus diving compressor and a freezer like a fish trawler - as long as it is within your payload it is fine ;-)

Btw, Schionnings Spectra steering is really great, why the hell I followed my last designer in my last boat and installed a heavy hydraulic steering?

ok., enough, this is not a builders thread!

[44'cruisingcat]

Designers do often allow for things that aren't necessarily shown on the plans.


Also, the truth is, if you go a few hundred kilo's over design displacement, it won't be the end of the world. You'll float maybe a cm or so deeper.

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Designers do often allow for things that aren't necessarily shown on the plans.

Also, the truth is, if you go a few hundred kilo's over design displacement, it won't be the end of the world. You'll float maybe a cm or so deeper.

Yes, mostly they float. Performance nil, why you spent money for a Schionning?

Ever thought why designers study for years, take exams, put every effort to design a seaworthy yacht? Even compute something stupid like weight!

Rare, but occasionally there might be an issue with an overweight/overloaded boat, would like to see the faces of coast guard or maritime court carefully listening to your answers above. The designers answer is for sure NOT that he allowed for things that aren't shown on the plans, warranty void!

A heavier boat, it is not for the "few" cm higher waterline, heavier reflects on everything, stronger hull, stronger rig, stronger anchors/chain/windlass etc. Less speed, less pointing ability, less agility, less load carrying ability! A yacht is a unity, change one figure and change all!

What you do for yourself, as long as you do not harm others, it maybe, but do not lull beginners with easygoing statements!

Give it try, overload your car, choose a rough road (sea is not smooth all times either) and pass a police officer! Ah, you do not want to do that? Hm.

Fair winds and following seas!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by blubaju

Yes, mostly they float. Performance nil, why you spent money for a Schionning?

OK so a Schionning that floats 1cm deeper than DWL has nil performance.

Possibly explains why I overtook 5 of them between the Keppels and Pt Clinton last year.

Makes me very happy I didn't spend the money for one!

[downunder]

Originally Posted by blubaju

Yes, mostly they float. Performance nil, why you spent money for a Schionning?

Ever thought why designers study for years, take exams, put every effort to design a seaworthy yacht? Even compute something stupid like weight!

Rare, but occasionally there might be an issue with an overweight/overloaded boat, would like to see the faces of coast guard or maritime court carefully listening to your answers above. The designers answer is for sure NOT that he allowed for things that aren't shown on the plans, warranty void!

A heavier boat, it is not for the "few" cm higher waterline, heavier reflects on everything, stronger hull, stronger rig, stronger anchors/chain/windlass etc. Less speed, less pointing ability, less agility, less load carrying ability! A yacht is a unity, change one figure and change all!

What you do for yourself, as long as you do not harm others, it maybe, but do not lull beginners with easygoing statements!

Give it try, overload your car, choose a rough road (sea is not smooth all times either) and pass a police officer! Ah, you do not want to do that? Hm.

Fair winds and following seas!

You clearly convience me why I have somewhat gone off Schonnings. There sensitively to weight for cruising.

I do think however there is a larger margin in a 1750 for cruising than a 1320 which has little.

[blubaju]

Originally Posted by downunder

You clearly convience me why I have somewhat gone off Schonnings. There sensitively to weight for cruising.

I do think however there is a larger margin in a 1750 for cruising than a 1320 which has little.

Sorry NO, the do have exactly the same payload, 2000kg for what is on your plan! I checked for the 1750 and I know my one and this is exactly why I choose the Wilderness 1320. Highest payload on a small cat and made of prefinished panels, hence avoiding the danger of "oversoaking" like in stripplanking

And to the above reply, it is only a warning to new builders to avoid frustration once you put this thing in water. A sophisticated multihull is not a ferrocement monohull to formulate it a bit drastic. Sure, even with 5cm deeper it will sail quite well, but I have seen Catamarans with only 40cm bridgedeck clearance. Just, take weight serious! You always will be to heavy once cruising. My wife got an oven - I made the rudder posts in Carbon to make up for this extra weight.

Waterline 1750 from Schionning homepage:
LOA 17.50 metres
BOA 9.50 metres
DRAFT 0.500 metres
HEADROOM (Hulls) Full Standing
HEADROOM (Bridgedeck) Full Standing
MAST HEIGHT 23.00 metres
SAIL AREA (Main + Headsail) 179.50 sq metres
PAYLOAD 2000 kg
DISPLACEMENT 9068 kg
BRIDGEDECK CLEARANCE 0.950 metres

[blubaju]

IMHO, for long range cruising, Wilderness or Cosmos are the designs, today Arrow, not G-force or Waterline. They somehow fall in the bracket daysailor or sportsmaschine ;-) Today I'd go for Arrow. I had some discussions with Schionning when I purchased my plans, I did not like the stripplanking and asked what the heck is so ugly on the Audi quattro from 1990 - and see what is the newest design?

More on weight problems, read Schionning homepage ;-)

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by downunder

You clearly convience me why I have somewhat gone off Schonnings. There sensitively to weight for cruising.

I do think however there is a larger margin in a 1750 for cruising than a 1320 which has little.

The 1750 has a designed payload of 2,000kg, roughly 2/3 that of the Lagoon 440's 3,000kgs. But on a much bigger boat.

2,000kg is certainly within the range of reasonable for two people aboard, but it means you really need to always choose the lighter option of everything. A top notch water maker is critical because you don't have the load capacity for big tanks. The dinghy needs to be on the small side, because the weight will kill you.

Everything taken on the boat from food to equipment needs to be accounted for and watched very closely. Because when you start to overload her things will go pear shaped quickly.


Frankly if I was going to spend that much time worried about keeping weight off the boat I would look seriously at the Rapido 60 trimaran. Even faster, the same payload, and I much prefer the motion of trimarans.

Just for comparison sake the Gunboat 60 has a payload capacity of 4,000kg.

[Sberg]

I have a wilderness 1320. When I bought the plans and begun building, I didn't have 3 kids. We are now too heavy. By how much I couldn't say. I had to give up worrying about the weight of everything that came aboard.
We've sailed (mostly) from the west coast of Australia across the top to the east coast now. Through the Kimberley we were extra loaded big time with fuel, food and humans. At no time did my hulls go pear shaped🙄
Actually had a really good time even though we are too heavy.
I did consider throwing a child over with all their schoolwork when 44c past me last month but I don't think it would have helped☹️
Even overloaded at times she moved along without too much effort, good cruising.
A well built schionning/oram/Duflex boat will be fun to cruise on and that's what we all plan on.
Have fun everyone.

[yeloya]

Unfortunately, the performance doesn't come free...


I don't know how much was her payload but the GB 62 that I've sailed had everything imaginable in carbon, included the BBQ... All batteries were Lithium which are much lighter but come at crazy prices.. The boat was supposed to participate to ARC and the owner was planning to air freight the dingy to the other coast for saving 50-60 kg..
Talking about pay load or light displacement, every designer or manufacturer use a different standard, it's impossible to compare apple to apple..To me, reasonable size ground tackle gear, safety equipment enforced by laws, the minimum acceptable level of water and diesel (say 500 kg) should be included in the light displacement.
Couple of cm more immersion mean different thing for different hull shapes and different owners. I would guess that would matter less for Lagoon, FP owners than for anyone who is opting for a Schionning design.
After sailing so many different cats, I came to conclusion that the hull shape is the most crucial factor to determine, the performance in various AWA's and wind speeds, load carrying capability, sea motion, sea worthyness.
There isn't any specific design which would deliver all of them, otherwise everyone would have the same one.
If you want a high performance fast boat (I mean not only going fast in high winds but being also able to sail in very light winds) you need keep the boat very light, hence give away from several items (and or get sophisticated items for more $$$$$$) or go for bigger boats again for more $$$$$$$...


Cheers


Yeloya

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Sberg

I have a wilderness 1320. When I bought the plans and begun building, I didn't have 3 kids. We are now too heavy. By how much I couldn't say. I had to give up worrying about the weight of everything that came aboard.
We've sailed (mostly) from the west coast of Australia across the top to the east coast now. Through the Kimberley we were extra loaded big time with fuel, food and humans. At no time did my hulls go pear shaped��
Actually had a really good time even though we are too heavy.
I did consider throwing a child over with all their schoolwork when 44c past me last month but I don't think it would have helped☹️
Even overloaded at times she moved along without too much effort, good cruising.
A well built schionning/oram/Duflex boat will be fun to cruise on and that's what we all plan on.
Have fun everyone.

Exactly the point I've been making: your performance doesn't just vanish as soon as you go a single kilo over the design number. Some people seem to think it does.

We're a couple of centimetres below DWL, and yes there's a noticeable loss in performance, but it's the difference between sailing (on some points of sail) at slightly over TWS and now sailing slightly under. Not the end of the world.