A different kind of Cat

[Scubatony]

I have been looking at Cats for several years. I owned a Gimini 3000 and sailed it a few thousand miles. I liked many aspects of it but hated others. We know that all boats are a compromise.
Recently I stumbled across Wharram designs. For those unfamiliar James Wharram has been designing cats for 30+ years. He sells plans and you build your boat.
They are unique in many ways.
They are very seaworthy, after the old Polynesian style boats. They have a nice mix of old and new technology.
They are cheaper by far. I am having a Tiki 38 built new for around 150k USD.
They don't have as much internal living space as the newer RV Charter cats.
They are lightweight and fast and point very well without dagger boards or carbon fiber components.
Here is a great example of a TIKI 38 you might find interesting.
https://youtu.be/HwEejk7bhCw

I am a bit of a nomad so have no place for me to build one. I am having mine build in the Philippines and it will take about 12 months. It would be nice to just go buy one.
So here is my question.
AS all boats are compromising do you think this boat would do well as a production boat? It is different enough but still offers the benefits of a catamaran. Speed, shallow draft, deck space?
If you could buy a new ocean going cat for under $200k would you consider it?

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by Scubatony

I have been looking at Cats for several years. I owned a Gimini 3000 and sailed it a few thousand miles. I liked many aspects of it but hated others. We know that all boats are a compromise.
Recently I stumbled across Wharram designs. For those unfamiliar James Wharram has been designing cats for 30+ years. He sells plans and you build your boat.
They are unique in many ways.
They are very seaworthy, after the old Polynesian style boats. They have a nice mix of old and new technology.
They are cheaper by far. I am having a Tiki 38 built new for around 150k USD.
They don't have as much internal living space as the newer RV Charter cats.
They are lightweight and fast and point very well without dagger boards or carbon fiber components.
Here is a great example of a TIKI 38 you might find interesting.
https://youtu.be/HwEejk7bhCw

I am a bit of a nomad so have no place for me to build one. I am having mine build in the Philippines and it will take about 12 months. It would be nice to just go buy one.
So here is my question.
AS all boats are compromising do you think this boat would do well as a production boat? It is different enough but still offers the benefits of a catamaran. Speed, shallow draft, deck space?
If you could buy a new ocean going cat for under $200k would you consider it?

Hi,

I've never sailed one, or even been aboard one, but the designs are proven and owners seem to love them. I don't know about resale values, and variations in build quality are something to consider too. If you like the design, value, and interior space, I say go for it.

[Tupaia]

Wharrams are excellent boats.

They are often built using cheap material or by poorly skilled builders and results often poor.

The yard in Philippines produce the best Wharrams I have seen, excellent materials and workmanship.

[valhalla360]

I've been on a couple. I think you are overstating the performance capabilities. Not that they can't move along in the right conditions but don't expect to go head to head with a true performance boat and stay with them, particularly up wind.

There's the old design maxim: You can have a cheap luxurious high performance boat. Pick any two. Wharram totally sold out the luxurious.

If they meet your needs, go for it but they are cheap for a reason. Most people spending 6 figures on a boat want a living space. Rather than building, I would seriously consider checking out the used market as they are typically pretty cheap.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Any more, most of the cat buying set wants a weekend condo as much as they desire a sailboat. And a Wharram doesn't fit the bill on this. Nor are they performance boats, so that niche is out too.
I do know that www.BoatsmithFL.com builds some of them as custom boats, on demand. It may be worth talking to them about this. And the owner is a member here on CF.

[Scubatony]

TOtally agree. There is no Luxury in a Wharram but the compromise of performance and price seems reasonable to me. I am not a fancy person. I don't need a floating condo. But I do want a boat that can get me across oceans safely and reasonably quickly.
I didn't mean to infer these boats can out perform a Catana or Outreamer but neither do they cost $900k.
I agree that the build and resale can be marginal. I think this is due to the plans only approach. What if a yard produced a good quality fiberglass version? Would they be more appealing then?
Thanks for the good words on the build quality in Philippines. I did some research and heard nothing but good things about their build quality.
ST

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Any more, most of the cat buying set wants a weekend condo as much as they desire a sailboat. And a Wharram doesn't fit the bill on this. Nor are they performance boats, so that niche is out too.
I do know that www.BoatsmithFL.com builds some of them as custom boats, on demand. It may be worth talking to them about this. And the owner is a member here on CF.

I second this

[Srfnsnw100]

Originally Posted by Scubatony

I have been looking at Cats for several years. I owned a Gimini 3000 and sailed it a few thousand miles. I liked many aspects of it but hated others. We know that all boats are a compromise.

Recently I stumbled across Wharram designs. For those unfamiliar James Wharram has been designing cats for 30+ years. He sells plans and you build your boat.

They are unique in many ways.

They are very seaworthy, after the old Polynesian style boats. They have a nice mix of old and new technology.

They are cheaper by far. I am having a Tiki 38 built new for around 150k USD.

They don't have as much internal living space as the newer RV Charter cats.

They are lightweight and fast and point very well without dagger boards or carbon fiber components.

Here is a great example of a TIKI 38 you might find interesting.

https://youtu.be/HwEejk7bhCw



I am a bit of a nomad so have no place for me to build one. I am having mine build in the Philippines and it will take about 12 months. It would be nice to just go buy one.

So here is my question.

AS all boats are compromising do you think this boat would do well as a production boat? It is different enough but still offers the benefits of a catamaran. Speed, shallow draft, deck space?

If you could buy a new ocean going cat for under $200k would you consider it?

We are looking for the right cat also and our only sailing experience is a 14' daysailer(which is really fun). We've been looking at boats and studying the "buying a sailboat" stuff for over a year. We think living space and comfort will be very important since our plan will have us living aboard 80% and sailing 20% of the time. Our budget is around $250,000 so we're looking at Leopards and Lagoons. We're interested in a production boat because if things don't work out or something changes, we can more easily sell our boat.

[coastalexplorer]

Back in the mid to late 1960's connected to the class system of Britain. the Daily express news paper came up with a sailing dingy design called the Enterprise to get more people in the middle class involved in the upper class activity of sailing'

The working mans newspaper The Daily Mirror not to be out done, and after publishing a story about converting a wardrobe to a boat for £10At the Earls Court boat show. They Hired Barry Bucknell Of DIY Fame to design a cheap sailing dingy, 'The mirror; made in kit form by Bell woodworking for £50 that any good general handy man could put together

SuddenlyOut of all the experimental boat building methods of the 1960's Ferro cement being one of them. stitch and clue method plywood hull construction became all the rage.

Now people can correct me IF they think I am wrong but my best recollection is that the Daily mirror's Sunday edition was only too happy to report about this Man James Wharram in the Milford haven building controversial versions of Polynesian boats out of plywood. and 'they' making some small scandal out of the all female crew who at times preferred to sail without their clothes on.

As far as I am aware the whole design principle was to cater to the home builder. The simplicity of the design was essentially two separate hulls that could move independently in rough seas because they were only joined by cross poles netting and rope lashings. and certainty James has spent a lifetime proving that his ideas and philosophy works safely.

How ever IMHO it takes a certain would be sailors mind set to study his ideas and methods. understand and accept them before becoming follower.

So the idea of trying to turn a Do it your self based bushiness model into a conventional commercial offering ...I would be challenged to imagine how it could succeed. It goes against the original concept.

[PhiSig1071]

Personally, I also think to some extent the safety record of the Wharrams, and their safe operation in general, is due to the fact that they are often sailed by their builder. A lashed together boat requires sailors to be "in tune" with their vessel and to be capable of adjusting or fixing their vessel as needed. People tend to buy things and expect them to be "plug-n-play", which is not the case with a boat in general and definitely not the case with a Wharram.

[Scubatony]

Coastalexplorer. Thanks for your input here. I didn't know that history in Britain. I think there are a lot of old stories about the way things start and thrive that today's instant info age misses.
That being said, just because an original idea did not include being a production design why would that preclude it being viable now. If the market needs a less expensive cat that a non builder type sailor is interested in than why not bring it to market.
I agree that this is not your garden design that appeals to the mass market but that is also one of the reasons I like it.
Just because all the new cats on the market cost 300 + to the consumer doesn't it seem like they have skipped a lot of potential customers. LIke the 50 pound kit dingy?
I just see all the new cats as the same thing with very little innovation or variety. Is that really the only thing that is worth selling?


p.s. SEawind might be an exception here.

[Fore and Aft]

Check out this video on YouTube-17 knots up Zuytdorp cliffs sailing Tangaroa.
That's a 36 Wharram, that sort of speed is not uncommon I think. At Christmas time a Wharram Tiki 21 just smoked past us at Hervey Bay. We were doing about 6 knots and they went past us like we were in reverse!
Cheers

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Check out this video on YouTube-17 knots up Zuytdorp cliffs sailing Tangaroa.
That's a 36 Wharram, that sort of speed is not uncommon I think. At Christmas time a Wharram Tiki 21 just smoked past us at Hervey Bay. We were doing about 6 knots and they went past us like we were in reverse!
Cheers

I think Ive seen this boat before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXvNp9Xfrhw

[tomfl]

Wharram cats have been around for quite a while and by some accounts are responsible for a wide spread, but incorrect, claim that cats can't sail upwind. The do sail well in what I will call traditional off wind trade wind sailing. There have been a few threads about the ones being professionally build in Florida and the price seems a lot lower than more common modern cats. You do give up a lot of features many folks associate with the more modern cats but there is a big price advantage.

[Scubatony]

Thanks for that. I do follow Tangaroa as well. I don't know the history of their 37 ft Wharram but you have to love a boat that can do that kind of speed comfortably for under 100k. I got to sail a few of them in light air recently and was impressed with the speed in light wind. They are designed to be light with manageable sail plans. I like that the sails are small enough to raise them without winches.
I suppose any boat can hit high speeds while surfing downwind but these boats seem particularly suited for it. I was on a 42 leopard a few years back and we had some sweet conditions between Puerto Rico and the Bahamas. The best we could get to was 12 kts surfing. And Tangaroa is only 37 ft.
One of the features I really like is the simplicity. No expensive hard to find parts to deal with. If something breaks you can make a new one out of fiberglass and wood. The rigging is super simple and the rudders are skeg hung and hinged with easy to repair and inspect lashings like much of the boat. I feel This simplicity will give me more independence and continue to keep costs down as the boat ages.