 |
|
01-10-2022, 12:15
|
#16
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: US East Coast Probably?
Boat: Privilege 435
Posts: 399
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot
Best place for solar on most catamarans is off the back of the bimini where they get the least amount of shade. You'll need the following:
2000wp of high quality solar (better yet 2500wp+)
Efficient A/C unit and limited cooling space (think variable speed and just your sleeping cabin)
Large battery bank that can recharged efficiently (think LiFePO4 and minimum 1000Wh, 1500Wh is better)
Another charging method or two, besides a little Honda or your stock alternators. Battery banks this big need a lot of power to recharge them, above and beyond your normal usage.
We haven't implemented our system yet, but will soon. We choose:
LG 435wp bifacial panels x 5 hanging off the back of the hard bimini on our 40' cat. We make an average of 6kwh per day now with 1440wp, but hope to make 10kwh when we upgrade.
Mabru 12v 12K btu/hr x 2 air conditioners.
330AH Victron LiFePO4 (@12v) x 4 House Batteries
Balmar XT 170A with Wakespeed Controllers x 2 and Victron Lynx BMS/Cerbo GX.
From my research it should integrate well and be a little easier to install.
My intention is to be able to cool our cabin overnight when required. We are happy with 27-28c for sleeping. If you like it colder, you will likely need more.
Good luck with your research. Be prepared to spend serious money.
You can do for less with traditional generator, but not being factory installed, I'd guess 20K for that option, not including A/C.
|
We removed our generator and went to the same Balmar xt170 x2 and Wakespeed ws500 x2. Couple things to note. The balmars will be down regulated because of temp most of the time. So you'll probably average 70ish amp each. I haven't gotten to do the actual math other time exactly, just a guess. They will bounce around between 10amp and 130amp (max that I set them).
I still have some issues that the Wakespeed quits entirely randomly and gives an alternator over temp error. It then needs to be restarted, which I have hooked to just the ignition on/off. I haven't figured out why it's doing this yet...
I highly recommend getting the WS500 config tool from Off Grid Solutions. It allows you to see what the regulator is doing in real time, such as which charge profile it's using, what triggers an error, etc. I was having a lot of issues trouble shooting before the tool. It's PC only, so you'll need parallels if you have a Mac.
Also I would highly recommend getting the isolated ground version of the xt170. I didn't realize this was an option and got a case ground. This means I can't put a shunt to read the output or regulate to the amp output of the two alternators independently.
Overall, I think it's sufficient for my 500ah bank, but you might not be satisfied with a 1300ah bank.
__________________
Occasionally attempting to document our favorite boat upgrades on clevermariner.com
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 07:55
|
#17
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2015
Boat: R&C Leopard 40
Posts: 1,033
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by BistroMath
We removed our generator and went to the same Balmar xt170 x2 and Wakespeed ws500 x2. Couple things to note. The balmars will be down regulated because of temp most of the time. So you'll probably average 70ish amp each. I haven't gotten to do the actual math other time exactly, just a guess. They will bounce around between 10amp and 130amp (max that I set them).
I still have some issues that the Wakespeed quits entirely randomly and gives an alternator over temp error. It then needs to be restarted, which I have hooked to just the ignition on/off. I haven't figured out why it's doing this yet...
I highly recommend getting the WS500 config tool from Off Grid Solutions. It allows you to see what the regulator is doing in real time, such as which charge profile it's using, what triggers an error, etc. I was having a lot of issues trouble shooting before the tool. It's PC only, so you'll need parallels if you have a Mac.
Also I would highly recommend getting the isolated ground version of the xt170. I didn't realize this was an option and got a case ground. This means I can't put a shunt to read the output or regulate to the amp output of the two alternators independently.
Overall, I think it's sufficient for my 500ah bank, but you might not be satisfied with a 1300ah bank.
|
I don’t want to derail the thread so we can discuss further with PM after this
We do have the isolated ground versions of the XT170 alternators. This was important to me. I will be repurposing our BMV-712 and its spare as shunts for each alternator with the displays at the helm. Additional cooling may be required. For now I have them pivoted away from the engine to help with air flow.
Most of our charging will be from the solar array. Additional will be from the XT170 pair or our little Honda generator.
Thanks for the other advice.
__________________
-Chris
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 09:22
|
#18
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL
Boat: 2013 Aquila Power Cat
Posts: 73
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 09:39
|
#19
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Knoxville, TN
Boat: Cal25 - Mark II
Posts: 49
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
34 foot sailing catamaran. 490 watts solar. Honda suitecase generator. 40 amp 120volt smart battery charger. 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter. 16500 btu water cooled A/C. 12/120 volt refrigerator and stand alone chest freezer.
Solar supports everything but A/C on sunny days.
Generaror cycles about 70% on/ 30% off once cabin has cooled down. Fuel lasts about 5 hours between fillups (1 gallon) during daylight hours, almost 8 hours at night. This is summer months in Miami, FL. Thermostat set at 76° F.
We usually stay in Miami during winter months and head north (S or N Carolina) to grab a dock so we can plug in for summer months, but Covid had us stuck in Miami for almost 2 years. Thus my summer month experience.
Pretty happy overall. Had to spend aroung $400 to $500 per month on fuel, but that is less than dockage pretty much anywhere. And changed oil a lot. 100 hrs. goes by quickly when running 24 hrs a day!
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 09:56
|
#20
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL
Boat: 2013 Aquila Power Cat
Posts: 73
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 09:58
|
#21
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 63
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot
Best place for solar on most catamarans is off the back of the bimini where they get the least amount of shade. You'll need the following:
2000wp of high quality solar (better yet 2500wp+)
Efficient A/C unit and limited cooling space (think variable speed and just your sleeping cabin)
Large battery bank that can recharged efficiently (think LiFePO4 and minimum 1000Wh, 1500Wh is better)
Another charging method or two, besides a little Honda or your stock alternators. Battery banks this big need a lot of power to recharge them, above and beyond your normal usage.
We haven't implemented our system yet, but will soon. We choose:
LG 435wp bifacial panels x 5 hanging off the back of the hard bimini on our 40' cat. We make an average of 6kwh per day now with 1440wp, but hope to make 10kwh when we upgrade.
Mabru 12v 12K btu/hr x 2 air conditioners.
330AH Victron LiFePO4 (@12v) x 4 House Batteries
Balmar XT 170A with Wakespeed Controllers x 2 and Victron Lynx BMS/Cerbo GX.
From my research it should integrate well and be a little easier to install.
My intention is to be able to cool our cabin overnight when required. We are happy with 27-28c for sleeping. If you like it colder, you will likely need more.
Good luck with your research. Be prepared to spend serious money.
You can do for less with traditional generator, but not being factory installed, I'd guess 20K for that option, not including A/C.
|
That's really the challenge - is it more cost efficient to install a generator or to have a different set-up. I realize there are other benefits and it's nice to be autonomous, but cost is the driving factor. The boat doesn't have A/C, a generator and only 250 watts of solar. So, being in South Carolina A/C is a must and doing the best/most affordable configuration possible is the goal. No matter what, it's going to cost a fortune.
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 10:02
|
#22
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Cruising the world
Boat: Hylas 54
Posts: 432
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by BistroMath
Also I would highly recommend getting the isolated ground version of the xt170. I didn't realize this was an option and got a case ground. This means I can't put a shunt to read the output or regulate to the amp output of the two alternators independently.
|
I don't understand this, maybe I am missing something. Why don't you put your shunts on the positive output from your alternators? Although we typically place our shunts on the negative side of a battery, there is no reason that they can not be on the positive side. Current flows in a loop and you can measure it anywhere. I have shunts in the positive lead coming from my case grounded alternators and they work fine. Just be sure to orient the shunt to the current flow, or else it will read "negative amps".
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 10:06
|
#23
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 975
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
I'd go with a good diesel generator.
Costs way less, much simpler, ditch the propane cooker and go
induction.
We did just this on my mates Irwin 44 and never looked back.
We also installed solar but that's mainly used to keep the batteries
topped up for refrigeration.
Cheers
Neil
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 10:18
|
#24
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 63
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot
I don’t want to derail the thread so we can discuss further with PM after this
We do have the isolated ground versions of the XT170 alternators. This was important to me. I will be repurposing our BMV-712 and its spare as shunts for each alternator with the displays at the helm. Additional cooling may be required. For now I have them pivoted away from the engine to help with air flow.
Most of our charging will be from the solar array. Additional will be from the XT170 pair or our little Honda generator.
Thanks for the other advice.
|
Feel free to discuss in thread...it's helpful to read all of the info.
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 10:55
|
#25
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL
Boat: 2013 Aquila Power Cat
Posts: 73
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 14:03
|
#26
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 82
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
archer power solutions just shipped their 12dc version ac after a one year wait , boat show price was 2400.00 . I think post covid the price is now 3000.00. I haven't hooked it up yet , so no performance data , it is marketed for small sailboat sleeping berth spaces . We shall see.
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 14:09
|
#27
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: US East Coast Probably?
Boat: Privilege 435
Posts: 399
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt11791
I don't understand this, maybe I am missing something. Why don't you put your shunts on the positive output from your alternators? Although we typically place our shunts on the negative side of a battery, there is no reason that they can not be on the positive side. Current flows in a loop and you can measure it anywhere. I have shunts in the positive lead coming from my case grounded alternators and they work fine. Just be sure to orient the shunt to the current flow, or else it will read "negative amps".
|
Your points are valid, and I skipped over a couple of details for the sake of brevity. Yes we could have put the WS500 shunts on the positives to have the alternators independently regulated by amps, I believe. However, I wanted to monitor with the Victron SmartShunts to see what was actually going on, and those can only be placed on the negative. This makes the isolated ground version necessary.
Secondly, being that we have two wakespeeds, I was actually concerned about putting TOO much charge into the bank, so I wanted a shunt at the batteries to manage to the total input, and you can't do both at the alternator and at the batteries (as far as I know).
I see some folks have connected their Wakespeed to nmea or to a victron cerbo, which would be another option, but that would have required a bunch of extra steps for us that I didn't want to get into. Installation time and cost were already starting to become a factor.
__________________
Occasionally attempting to document our favorite boat upgrades on clevermariner.com
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 18:00
|
#28
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Cruising the world
Boat: Hylas 54
Posts: 432
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Thanks for the additional info. I did not know that about Victron shunts.
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 18:05
|
#29
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,305
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot
Best place for solar on most catamarans is off the back of the bimini where they get the least amount of shade. You'll need the following:
2000wp of high quality solar (better yet 2500wp+)
Efficient A/C unit and limited cooling space (think variable speed and just your sleeping cabin)
Large battery bank that can recharged efficiently (think LiFePO4 and minimum 1000Wh, 1500Wh is better)
Another charging method or two, besides a little Honda or your stock alternators. Battery banks this big need a lot of power to recharge them, above and beyond your normal usage.
We haven't implemented our system yet, but will soon. We choose:
LG 435wp bifacial panels x 5 hanging off the back of the hard bimini on our 40' cat. We make an average of 6kwh per day now with 1440wp, but hope to make 10kwh when we upgrade.
Mabru 12v 12K btu/hr x 2 air conditioners.
330AH Victron LiFePO4 (@12v) x 4 House Batteries
Balmar XT 170A with Wakespeed Controllers x 2 and Victron Lynx BMS/Cerbo GX.
From my research it should integrate well and be a little easier to install.
My intention is to be able to cool our cabin overnight when required. We are happy with 27-28c for sleeping. If you like it colder, you will likely need more.
Good luck with your research. Be prepared to spend serious money.
You can do for less with traditional generator, but not being factory installed, I'd guess 20K for that option, not including A/C.
|
That’s about the right setup…can confirm real(!!!) 2000W of Solar is needed, not theoretical wp.
Bifacials solid panels wherever you can, the LGs are prefect….you will see 500W in real life from the 435W bifacials 
Your problem will be to fit that on a 40ft Nautitech..
Semi ridged produce in best case 50% of WP and degrade fast. Avoid or only mount Additionally wherever you cannot put ridged ones and have not enough power.
AC:
What you really want is the sleeping room of your owners cabin to be as small as possible means eg if you have an open owner hull install a door to your sleeping room which you close when you run AC. You use a small AC which can really cool it down during day with the solar power and keep it cool from the LFP house bank with quite modest energy consumption during night. If you need to cool down the whole 1 hull of your owner cat that needs huge amount of energy as the small ACs won‘t work which requires big AC which then needs genset or huge alternators=lot engine runtime at anchor.
|
|
|
03-10-2022, 18:23
|
#30
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,305
|
Re: A/C and electrical Upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by LivingWhale
That's really the challenge - is it more cost efficient to install a generator or to have a different set-up. I realize there are other benefits and it's nice to be autonomous, but cost is the driving factor. The boat doesn't have A/C, a generator and only 250 watts of solar. So, being in South Carolina A/C is a must and doing the best/most affordable configuration possible is the goal. No matter what, it's going to cost a fortune.
|
Genset:
It’s not only the setup costs, if you choose a genset it’s the maintenance, the Noise while using and the costs for fuel that’s add up. And gens are prone to break and frequently need fixing too.
Solar is basically maintenance free besides keeping the panels reasonably clean, quiet and properly installed work without hassles. There is never too less solar, stick on what you can fit…the best bifacial panels you can find and afford, every penny spend here pays off. 24V system is a must and Victron MPPT solar chargers.
Your 2nd best choice are big alternators on your engine…big because they put significant power in during the 30min of going into an anchorage till you switch it off after anchor properly set. So you don‘t need to run them additionally or if then just a short periode of time on anchor to recharge.
|
|
|
 |
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|