60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I'm a delivery skipper. I have moved a lot of big cats and big monohulls as well as more common 40-50 foot boats. I work with insurance companies for owner-aboard training when people buy more boat than can be underwritten.

With preparation and organization there is no reason anyone can't learn to dock a Privilege 615 or any other big boat singlehanded. Sprinting is a bad idea. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. The 615 with raised helms certainly has the disadvantages of all such boats but from the wheel to the midship clean is a 10 second walk. With proper prep you walk to the midship cleat, get a breast line on, and walk back to the wheel to pull against that line before moving to other lines (depends on conditions, but probably stern line next).

My customers do quite well moving their boats around by themselves.

If you had crossed oceans on catamarans you'd understand that fiddles and handholds are critical. And non-skid. Lots of non-skid.

I suspect we agree on more than we disagree on. I would never suggest having to move fast on a boat as part of standard practice, for example to get from the helm to the rail if docking. Just like I'm sure you also do not suggest anyone should be pulling on lines on a boat of that size, but using the engines. And I suspect we also agree on doing everything slowly, smoothly and calmly, using the boat not human strength to put the boat where you want it.

I also agree that it's possible to learn to single hand lots of boats regardless of size, and it takes planning and practice, but I do fail to see how you can do that safely and reliably on a boat with the helm a looong way from the rail/cleats - but I'm happy to learn as it is not a boat I have tried on. I can see it in conditions with an on dock breeze, or in a calm, but once there is a breeze blowing you off the dock, I do not see safely leaving the helm for 20 seconds to go drop a line over a cleat so that you can then bring the boat fully alongside. I just think you got it wrong with this particular style of catamaran and it was a bit offensive to suggest that the guy who owns one that he was incompetent if he couldn't or didn't think you should dock it solo. And for me solo does not include relying on trained dock hands.

I do disagree on the whole fiddles and handholds obsession on a catamaran, but its not a big deal. After moving to a catamaran it took me a while to adapt my thinking from the mono-hull world I had been in. I do not like big open spaces without some support, but the offshore motion on the catamaran I've crossed oceans on (the Atlantic a couple of times, the Pacific just once) didn't require fiddles on tables, though we did have them on one bench or much in the way of handholds. On the other hand in my opinion they really were critical on the mono-hull I crossed the Atlantic and sailed the Med on.

Mark.

[Shanachie]

Um, we're not "Commies." You're free to spend yourself into bankruptcy for the sake of ego, i.e., having the biggest boat in the anchorage.



Just don't complain that you weren't warned.



After 40 years of owning boats off and on, I know what they cost. You apparently don't.


The sales tax on your proposed buy would cost 70K or 80K just by itself. New boats don't come fully equipped. Add 100K to the price if you want decent electronics and sails.


Used boats ALWAYS have problems. Particularly cats, which often come out of charter. In fact, many of them are in crappy condition. Accept that as truth.



A standard on this forum is semi-delusional posts by two types of people.


One thinks they can buy a boat for a couple of grand, put a little sweat equity into it and sail it around the world for little money. Or live aboard in a beautiful anchorage for a few dollars a month.



The other is people who have a few dollars and think they can elevate themselves into the elite class by purchasing a trophy boat that will be the envy of everyone else in the marina or anchorage.


What they don't see is that boating is a really expensive hobby. (I have the check stubs to prove it.) BOAT used to mean break out another thousand. Now it means break out another ten thousand.



People are trying to tell you that you are headed toward disaster. You are free not to listen. But I won't give you $10 when you're standing on the side of the road asking for money.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

I suspect we agree on more than we disagree on.

Hi Mark. Probably.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. *grin*

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

I also agree that it's possible to learn to single hand lots of boats regardless of size, and it takes planning and practice, but I do fail to see how you can do that safely and reliably on a boat with the helm a looong way from the rail/cleats - but I'm happy to learn as it is not a boat I have tried on.

You've touched on something really important. Practice. I have a specific method I have used training owners. I'm working on documentation beyond PowerPoint I will share on CF when it is more suitable for public consumption. *grin* Information is power when shared. Stand by.

As I wrote above, if conditions are bad I wait or develop another plan. In my experience most of the time, one way or another I can dock alone. I don't think I'm anything special - training and practice are key. If I can do it most other people can do it also.

I agree with your easy scenarios, and that blowing off is most challenging. I disagree that it is unsafe. There is an underlying assumption based on my experience that really big cats end up side tied on tee heads. So if you're blowing off you have a good bit of room. If there isn't a lot of room you're usually pretty protected and the drift is slow. Your point on practice is relevant here. Spend some time tossing the bight of lines to practice. I recommend some of Jack Klang's YouTube videos on line handling. A three-year-old makes a dandy target. *grin* Practice. If you miss in the real world don't try again, circle around, prepare again, and try again.

The Privilege 615 isn't bad at all for getting to the midship cleat. The flybridge Lagoons are a PITA. The problem isn't distance per se but those (stupid <- opinion) stairs.

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

And for me solo does not include relying on trained dock hands.

Absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

I do disagree on the whole fiddles and handholds obsession on a catamaran, but its not a big deal.

My experience on offshore passages is that lots of stuff on shelves and counters on catamarans ends up on the floor. My guidance to owner/customers is to put everything away. Too many owners-aboard are convinced their spiffy coffee maker will be fine and it ends up on the floor. Screws or built in would solve the problem. A percolator on a gimballed cooker (good luck finding that on a cat) with pot holders is better yet.

Lots of relatively minor injuries to crew offshore attributable to a lack of handholds. I live in fear of the day I fall down the stairs into a hull. There aren't even fiddles on the counters to hold onto!

Ceiling handholds are not expensive and can be attractive and if nothing else give you a place to hang laundry.

I'll add to my diatribe *grin* nav station seating with no back support. I have a work around for that but it's another thing I have to schlep.

Respectfully, dave

[Sos]

Perhaps where you sail is a factor. I have enough trouble berthing our 37' cat in a blowing off the pontoon situation. Also here in the UK you would be very limited in where you could dock a cat that size. No idea about the other side of the Atlantic

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Um, we're not "Commies." You're free to spend yourself into bankruptcy for the sake of ego, i.e., having the biggest boat in the anchorage.



Just don't complain that you weren't warned.



After 40 years of owning boats off and on, I know what they cost. You apparently don't.


The sales tax on your proposed buy would cost 70K or 80K just by itself. New boats don't come fully equipped. Add 100K to the price if you want decent electronics and sails.


Used boats ALWAYS have problems. Particularly cats, which often come out of charter. In fact, many of them are in crappy condition. Accept that as truth.



A standard on this forum is semi-delusional posts by two types of people.


One thinks they can buy a boat for a couple of grand, put a little sweat equity into it and sail it around the world for little money. Or live aboard in a beautiful anchorage for a few dollars a month.



The other is people who have a few dollars and think they can elevate themselves into the elite class by purchasing a trophy boat that will be the envy of everyone else in the marina or anchorage.


What they don't see is that boating is a really expensive hobby. (I have the check stubs to prove it.) BOAT used to mean break out another thousand. Now it means break out another ten thousand.



People are trying to tell you that you are headed toward disaster. You are free not to listen. But I won't give you $10 when you're standing on the side of the road asking for money.

Lol. Apparently your reading comprehension skills need updating.

Where did I say that I wanted to buy a new boat?

Also, why do you think I have no boating experience?

I have 52 years boating experience starting with a rowboat when I was 8. Since then sailboats, and currently a 40 foot single engine powerboat I have zero problems docking. I know what boats cost. In the last year I spent over 30k on a new generator and new engine alone, then there was an autopilot fix, new batteries, and a long list of stuff I can't even remember?

I currently own three powerboats and am converting a Seacycle to solar electric as a science fair project with my 10 year old.

He, has been boating his entire life. He, at 10 years old, is 5'4" tall and a straight A student. He will be 15 and well over 6 feet tall when and if I end up with a 60 foot Cat. I suspect he will be a big help.

The problems with folks like you is you have a fantasy that you are the only one who knows anything.

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

A standard on this forum is semi-delusional posts by two types of people.


One thinks they can buy a boat for a couple of grand, put a little sweat equity into it and sail it around the world for little money. Or live aboard in a beautiful anchorage for a few dollars a month.



The other is people who have a few dollars and think they can elevate themselves into the elite class by purchasing a trophy boat that will be the envy of everyone else in the marina or anchorage.

There are plenty of people who have bought a pile of junk and then through hard work and privation sailed around the world. Not my choice, but I don't fault them.

My interest in sailing off begain with reading "the Dove". A 16 year old boy who sailed around the globe in a 24 foot boat. That boy grew up a few miles from me and was about a decade older than I. He left from the same port I took my intermediate sailing course in. I took that course when I was 10.

I don't want to sail around the world, much less in a 24 foot boat. That kid gave up in South Africa after repeatedly doing 360s and limping around under a jury-rigged boat. He was then sponsored by National Geographic Magazine. They bought him a 33 footer to finish in, because bigger is better.

If I wanted people to have people look with envy at my gorgeous home on the water I would just stay home.

A big boat is better in weather, faster, has more storage, a bigger dinghy, and is much more comfortable both in ride and living space.

But in your world all ya see is envy.

Typical Commie.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Sos

Perhaps where you sail is a factor. I have enough trouble berthing our 37' cat in a blowing off the pontoon situation. Also here in the UK you would be very limited in where you could dock a cat that size. No idea about the other side of the Atlantic

As a delivery skipper, lots of places including the Hamble, Southampton Water, Solent, Channel, North Sea.

In broad sweeping terms, UK sailors experience more sporty weather in the normal course of sailing than Americans do.

Dockage for big cats is challenge. For years you either found a side-tie at the end of a dock (we call a tee-head) or anchored out. Mooring fields often didn't and don't have enough spacing for long and wide boats. In more recent years marinas are pulling intermediate pilings from slips to provide double-wide slips for cats, priced accordingly of course.

Maintenance is a less frequent issue but a bigger challenge. In my home grounds of Chesapeake Bay there are five places I know of to haul a cat wider than 24'. That isn't likely to change as the limit is the width of the lift well which means major construction and extended downtime to change. For really big cats that leaves owners shopping for small shipyards. Here on Chesapeake Bay there is one small shipyard (in Salisbury for locals) and one marine railway (Deltaville). That's going to get expensive and a scheduling challenge.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

He, has been boating his entire life. He, at 10 years old, is 5'4" tall and a straight A student. He will be 15 and well over 6 feet tall when and if I end up with a 60 foot Cat. I suspect he will be a big help.

I suspect you are correct. This is a good reason for having children. Unfortunately you get three to five years of good solid work *ahem* help out of them before they go off to Uni.

[Chotu]

What a thread. LOL

I think a lot of people who are trash talking the OP are forgetting he can sell the boat when he’s done. He’s not losing all that money. He’s losing depreciation and maintenance. It’s expensive. I couldn’t afford it. But he can. So why all the envy?

People get bigger boats for stability, speed, better ride, more room, less worry about marginal weather, etc etc.

Does anyone get a boat to show off? That seems absurd. I guess a few do, but most people get longer boats for all the advantages they deliver.

[ol1970]

Originally Posted by Chotu

What a thread. LOL

I think a lot of people who are trash talking the OP are forgetting he can sell the boat when he’s done. He’s not losing all that money. He’s losing depreciation and maintenance. It’s expensive. I couldn’t afford it. But he can. So why all the envy?

People get bigger boats for stability, speed, better ride, more room, less worry about marginal weather, etc etc.

Does anyone get a boat to show off? That seems absurd. I guess a few do, but most people get longer boats for all the advantages they deliver.

I couldn't agree more Chotu, hell if anything owning a bigger boat just shows people how crazy you are for lighting money on fire through boat ownership! In the end get what you want and fits your needs the best. None of us get to take the money with us, so if you end up blowing through an extra $500k for a few years of adventure what's the harm. Just less money that will get donated to charity in our case.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by ol1970

I couldn't agree more Chotu, hell if anything owning a bigger boat just shows people how crazy you are for lighting money on fire through boat ownership! In the end get what you want and fits your needs the best. None of us get to take the money with us, so if you end up blowing through an extra $500k for a few years of adventure what's the harm. Just less money that will get donated to charity in our case.

I agree. And in general, people think owning and/or traveling by boat is just nuts. Forget the money part.

In the money discussions, one of the subjects is how much the boat costs over X number of years, which is an important, if not impossible number to nail down. What is almost always missing in those conversations of cost is what one is BUYING?

The expense is paint, sails, rigging, fuel, parts, etc. But that is not what WE are buying.

What we are BUYING is the experience, the lifestyle, the ability to go to other places and see things we would not be able to see without a boat.

When one swallows the anchor, the question should be, "Was all of the money we spent to buy and run the boat, worth what we learned, saw, and experienced?"

The answer had better be YES.

As long as one can afford the expense of buying and running the boat, how much one spends is a who cares as long as the answer to the question is is YES.

Later,
Dan

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=dc9loser;3478026]



My two questions are:



1. maintenance costs vs a used or new 50 footer? They tend to have two generators, two water makers, and other redundant systems.



2. Can a couple handle one of these monsters? All electric winches and etc. Frankly I am a bit terrified by how huge these boats are. Those gigantic sails etc seem daunting.

/QUOTE]

Just a reminder of your original post and the 2 questions you asked?

So no need to get so defensive if someone well meaning shared the original caution of those 2 questions.

As a professional mariner, I assess every scenario with the confidence of years of experience,. .
I recognize that size has both good and bad traits, which with some forethought, you can either minimize or accept the downsides.
Professionally, the bigger they are, the easier they are to handle and provide reliability.

So the silly discussion of solo docking is a red herring, since conditions dictate that decision, not the magical boat handling skills of any individual.

After a while practicing,...... our skills develop to be mostly the same.... whether it is a 20m or a 200m yacht, our confidence grows. . ....
......BUT, the big difference is that the bigger the tonnage and forces, the easier it is to kill someone, so that is always at the back of your decision process.

I'm quite sure you have the smarts to develop your own risk assessment and costs, based on your own cruising plan.

The reality is out there, every day, every location, every boat, so seeking assurances within a void of details, is interesting, but don't take it seriously!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

So the silly discussion of solo docking is a red herring, since conditions dictate that decision, not the magical boat handling skills of any individual.

After a while practicing,...... our skills develop to be mostly the same.... whether it is a 20m or a 200m yacht, our confidence grows. . ....
......BUT, the big difference is that the bigger the tonnage and forces, the easier it is to kill someone, so that is always at the back of your decision process.

I disagree that talking about solo docking is silly. For couples cruising the day will come when someone is hurt or ill and one person is solo. Plan ahead.

Your point on practice is the same as mine.

Your point about the forces involved as boats get bigger and the associated risk is absolutely spot on. Fiberglass, aluminum, or steel can be fixed. Crushed hands and feet are a real problem.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I disagree that talking about solo docking is silly. For couples cruising the day will come when someone is hurt or ill and one person is solo. Plan ahead.



Your point on practice is the same as mine.

.

To clarify, being able to dock the boat yourself when the normal crew is only Two, is something you should be able to do.

In solo docking, there are many ways to skin the cat, if conditions are particularly adverse

Including laying out anchor against a strong wind blowing you off the dock, backing up against the pull and lassoing the pilings/cleat before lining yourself in under control

My point is that this is not a key decision factor in choosing between a 45ft or a 65ft yacht and the reality is you deal with what you chose.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Including laying out anchor against a strong wind blowing you off the dock, backing up against the pull and lassoing the pilings/cleat before lining yourself in under control

My point is that this is not a key decision factor in choosing between a 45ft or a 65ft yacht and the reality is you deal with what you chose.

*grin* I agree. As it happens my very first delivery back in 2002 was a Chaparral 350 Signature fast express cruiser. We ducked into Manasquan NJ USA--a less than great place--and I Med moored to the fuel dock in high winds. The marina staff had never seen anything like it. Worked a treat.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

*grin* I agree. As it happens my very first delivery back in 2002 was a Chaparral 350 Signature fast express cruiser. We ducked into Manasquan NJ USA--a less than great place--and I Med moored to the fuel dock in high winds. The marina staff had never seen anything like it. Worked a treat.

As a cat with slightly less than 24’ beam, we now Med moor to fuel docks whenever possible - it means we can fill both tanks without having to turn around to fill the other tank.