60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Lupin

Maintain wise of course it is more expensive than smaller boats, almost everything a bit major is about at least 10 k
So far I have spent 25k for solar, 15 for cushions, about 10k for checking and fixing motors and gens, about 21k for new anchor and chain.

?????

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

—- responding to a question on docking you said——

Sure you can. It's all about planning and organization.

I will argue that. It depends on wind, current and distance from the helm to the rail closest to the dock.

I can dock a FP Saba with a starboard tie up, no problem. Make that a port side tie up and BIG problem. When you get to a 60’ cat or Lagoons with those fly bridges and it get harder.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Snore

I will argue that. It depends on wind, current and distance from the helm to the rail closest to the dock.

I can dock a FP Saba with a starboard tie up, no problem. Make that a port side tie up and BIG problem. When you get to a 60’ cat or Lagoons with those fly bridges and it get harder.

Not harder, just more exciting!!!

[BoMoose]

Hey DC9loser .. I am also former dc9winner .. give me a call? andreinilax320a

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Snore

I will argue that. It depends on wind, current and distance from the helm to the rail closest to the dock.

I can dock a FP Saba with a starboard tie up, no problem. Make that a port side tie up and BIG problem. When you get to a 60’ cat or Lagoons with those fly bridges and it get harder.

Absolutely. That's still different than "can't." It also matters if you're coming into a home slip with lines already set up and a cheater line.

Assuming no prep on the dock and no dockhands (I don't like dockhands anyway - they are generally a hazard), you'd always want to stand off and get lines and fenders rigged. Docking on the wheel side is always easier as you can see so much better. Sometimes you can't and that certainly adds to the stress level. With hardtops and raised helms on many boats you simply can't see the offside rear corner.

The key for me is to get close, parallel, and stopped and move smartly to get a breast line on. From there everything is straightforward if not quite easy.

Flybridges make it particularly challenging as you really have to scramble and the stairs (a major detraction offshore as well) slow everything down.

The technique of side-stepping the boat with engines rotating the boat one way and the rudders way opposite is really helpful.

Sometimes, not often but sometimes, you have to anchor out and wait for conditions to improve. Never be too proud to circle around and try again.

Most of my work is offshore, but I do a good bit of local moves relocating for brokers or haul-outs or other service. Lots of close-quarter maneuvering. Add in training of owners who buy more boat than their insurance company is comfortable underwriting and I spend a lot of time on different boats doing this sort of thing. I'll be out with owners later this week doing just that.

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by Lupin

I have a privilege 615 and my plan is the Pacific, we are now in the Caribbean,
I have a good sailing experience, including north sea crossing and 1 Atlantic crossing with my old monohull.
There are no doubts about the 615 quality and seaworthiness, it is just a fantastic boat, at the moment I have 2 daughters with us helping handling the boat, but I can handle it alone it with my wife too. You can’t dock her alone btw.
Maintain wise of course it is more expensive than smaller boats, almost everything a bit major is about at least 10 k
So far I have spent 25k for solar, 15 for cushions, about 10k for checking and fixing motors and gens, about 21k for new anchor and chain.
I hope this will give you a good idea.
You should indeed get more experienced before running a big cat like this, probably could be similar for me to start flying with a boeing 747 instead that with a Piper or similar.
But as catamaran choice I agree this is a great one.

Thanks!

[eiasu]

Congratulations, great plan! I really wish i had the same possibilities!

I can imagine you would appreciate the Chris White Atlantic MastFoil 49 new or the 47 second hand. You'll find few video and specs on the net, they're about 1M usd and you might consider 100k usd / year as maintenance costs. You are well off for several years.

I'm just back from a long trip on a 63 feet catamaran, we were a crew of 7,there was space in abundance, excellent for big groups of 10-14 people but not suitable for a couple, minimum crew of 3/4.
The Chris White Mastfoil has not mainsail and it makes so easy to single hand and still has good sailing performance, it's a dream boat, you only need enough money and the courage to choose such a pioneer design.

Happy sailing, keep us updated

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by eiasu

...I can imagine you would appreciate the Chris White Atlantic MastFoil 49 new or the 47 second hand. You'll find few video and specs on the net, they're about 1M usd and you might consider 100k usd / year as maintenance costs. You are well off for several years.

I don't think the smaller Chris White designs have the payload carrying capacity for the OP, his family, and his proposed use case and needs.

Regrettably this is something that has been overlooked several times in this thread with perhaps well meaning, but perhaps also not so well considered suggestions regarding the suitability of some boats.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by Palarran

This really is a pure egotistical sentence followed by a pure naïve one. Great job!!

Originally Posted by Auspicious

You're going to have to be more specific.

At the risk of putting words in someone elses's mouth, my take was:

1. You suggested the owner of the Privilige 615 was wrong in saying it wasn't a boat to dock on your own. I'm guessing you've never docked a big catamaran like this, but when the helm is upstairs and a 20' sprint from the rail, docking truely solo where you also handle the lines is really not on. On the other hand similar sized boats with outboard helms like a Catana this can truely be done solo. Not saying you should pick a boat based on this, but there are real differences in layout unrelated to size that change what you can and can't do solo on a catamaran.

2. If you'd cruised on a catamaran, which this conversation is about, you'd understand that fiddles and handholds are nice to haves, not critical like they are on a monohull like your HR. I'm guessing you're not used to leaving glasses on a saloon table at sea in all sorts of conditions and having them stay there.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

At the risk of putting words in someone elses's mouth, my take was:

I'm a delivery skipper. I have moved a lot of big cats and big monohulls as well as more common 40-50 foot boats. I work with insurance companies for owner-aboard training when people buy more boat than can be underwritten.

With preparation and organization there is no reason anyone can't learn to dock a Privilege 615 or any other big boat singlehanded. Sprinting is a bad idea. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. The 615 with raised helms certainly has the disadvantages of all such boats but from the wheel to the midship clean is a 10 second walk. With proper prep you walk to the midship cleat, get a breast line on, and walk back to the wheel to pull against that line before moving to other lines (depends on conditions, but probably stern line next).

My customers do quite well moving their boats around by themselves.

If you had crossed oceans on catamarans you'd understand that fiddles and handholds are critical. And non-skid. Lots of non-skid.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Absolutely. That's still different than "can't." It also matters if you're coming into a home slip with lines already set up and a cheater line.

Cheater? If backing in, drop one forward spring and you are golden. Get the dockside spring on, get it slightly loaded, one bounce of engine astern and she will sit nicely while you get get second spring, or the bow and stern. BUT that doesn't work in a transient situation.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Docking on the wheel side is always easier as you can see so much better. Sometimes you can't and that certainly adds to the stress level. With hardtops and raised helms on many boats you simply can't see the offside rear corner.

This is where we differ- I want a semi-competent deckhand, on the side I can't see, to call "3 feet off on bow, 1' on the stern". In fact, I purchased headsets just for moving large boats.

As you know, when you are added to a policy for a delivery, they ask for prior claims. So we are one insurance claim from losing jobs. That deckhand helps me keep the gelcoat on the boat!

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The key for me is to get close, parallel, and stopped and move smartly to get a breast line on. From there everything is straightforward if not quite easy.

.

Ahhhh, if the boat can be stopped and doesn't move from wind or current- is that still classified as docking? Assuming you mean a spring line.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Most of my work is offshore, but I do a good bit of local moves relocating for brokers or haul-outs or other service. Lots of close-quarter maneuvering. Add in training of owners who buy more boat than their insurance company is comfortable underwriting and I spend a lot of time on different boats doing this sort of thing. I'll be out with owners later this week doing just that.

My business is 90% 500-1,200 mile runs, and I too do some owner training. But our philosophy differs. I train owners safety first, the are never to run. If there is ANY wind or current, the only way to get from a fly bridge boat or the 'non-wheel' side is a sprint. Adding one semi-competent person to the mix and life is suddenly safe.

Heck, when docking the helmsperson is putting a $1+Mil piece of fiberglass between 1-2 other $1+Mil piece of fiberglass with a lot of stuff that wants to damage the fiberglass. Why take the chance?

As I said before, we will agree to disagree on this one.

There are old sailors.
There are bold sailors.
......

[Shanachie]

Ah, I think you need to have a serious talk with a financial advisor. As the man once said, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.



You're thinking of spending 20 percent of your net worth -- maybe 30 or 35 percent after taxes -- on a depreciating, expensive-to-operate asset such as a 60-foot cat?


Let's say buying the boat leaves you with a net worth of $3.7 million. That sounds like a lot of money until you start doing the math. Then you discover you're really not wealthy.



An optimistic 7 percent return will give you 260K before taxes to operate the boat and support a family of four.That's middle-class living on land these days.



And when you're traveling in a million-dollar yacht, everyone sees you as a score to line their pockets. So prices go up.



Just doing a routine refit on a used boat that size can run you 50K. If there are real problems, start adding in multiples of 10K. Boatyards with Travel lifts that big will murder you for any work.



Insurance? 15-20K. Every time you pull into a dock, its going to cost you a couple hundred a night. Etc., etc., etc. That 260K a year is going to disappear quickly.



You won't fit under Intracoastal bridges. You'll probably have a deep enough draft to limit your anchoring choices in places with shallow water such as Florida and the Bahamas.


If I were your financial advisor, I would recommend against spending more than a couple of hundred thousand on a boat for a two-year trip.

[ohdrinkboy]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Ah, I think you need to have a serious talk with a financial advisor. As the man once said, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.



You're thinking of spending 20 percent of your net worth -- maybe 30 or 35 percent after taxes -- on a depreciating, expensive-to-operate asset such as a 60-foot cat?


Let's say buying the boat leaves you with a net worth of $3.7 million. That sounds like a lot of money until you start doing the math. Then you discover you're really not wealthy.



An optimistic 7 percent return will give you 260K before taxes to operate the boat and support a family of four.That's middle-class living on land these days.



And when you're traveling in a million-dollar yacht, everyone sees you as a score to line their pockets. So prices go up.



Just doing a routine refit on a used boat that size can run you 50K. If there are real problems, start adding in multiples of 10K. Boatyards with Travel lifts that big will murder you for any work.



Insurance? 15-20K. Every time you pull into a dock, its going to cost you a couple hundred a night. Etc., etc., etc. That 260K a year is going to disappear quickly.



You won't fit under Intracoastal bridges. You'll probably have a deep enough draft to limit your anchoring choices in places with shallow water such as Florida and the Bahamas.


If I were your financial advisor, I would recommend against spending more than a couple of hundred thousand on a boat for a two-year trip.

Wise advice.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Snore

Cheater?

I'm not sure where I got the vocabulary. It's a line from front piling to the back piling with a properly located butterfly hitch. When backing into the slip, you drop the hitch over the midship cleat and your fore and aft springs are done. It's great for a home slip.

As you say, transient slips have more variables. There are exceptions to every rule of thumb and we have to question our assumptions in each place. In general though I try and get a breast line on first. Short, direct, and something I can pull against in either direction. It's not likely to be part of final tie up, but is my first line ashore most of the time.

Originally Posted by Snore

This is where we differ- I want a semi-competent deckhand, on the side I can't see, to call "3 feet off on bow, 1' on the stern".

We may not differ as much as you think. There is a difference between a deckhand ("crew") and a dockhand (marina employee). Again there are exceptions but in general I find dockhands to be hazardous. They grab lines they shouldn't, pull when they shouldn't, and stand holding a line with a dim look in their eyes when I just want a turn around a cleat to pull against it.

On longer trips I sail with crew. Passages are full crew: me and three watchstanders. Moderate moves 100 - 500 miles may be a bit smaller. The short runs are harder to staff with my business model. There just isn't enough time for the opportunity to be attractive to crew. Relocating a boat for a broker, moving a boat for service, and other moves of a couple of hours I usually end up doing by myself. I recently moved a boat from Herrington Harbor South to Herrington Harbor North (Deale MD) and back for service, a grand distance of about five miles. If the owner wants someone to do it and I have a free day it works for me.

Originally Posted by Snore

Ahhhh, if the boat can be stopped and doesn't move from wind or current- is that still classified as docking?

Inertia and time. If everything is ready and you move smartly there is no need to sprint even from upstairs on a Lagoon. It takes time for wind and/or current to act on the boat. Usually. If the wind is blowing on the dock you sit on the fenders. If along the dock you stop a little ahead or behind where you want to be. Blowing off the dock means being really ready. Angles of course complicate things.

BUT when conditions are poor you may indeed need help. In those situations I stand off and think. Maybe I anchor and wait. Maybe I call the marina and talk by phone or VHF with someone that will come down to help (despite my disdain for dockhands) making sure they fully understand the plan for docking. Again, usually breast line over first. If I can get a breast on I can get stern and bow lines on, then springs. Details vary with the dock and a slip or side tie.

Originally Posted by Snore

I train owners safety first, the are never to run.

Firm agreement. With attribution, I have blatantly stolen guidance from Diana Doyle of Mark and Diana Doyle who before swallowing the anchor wrote some brilliant cruising guides. She said: "If the boat isn't close enough and slow enough to step off while wearing high heels, the skipper circles around and tries again." No running, no jumping, no heroics. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I'll add that alone on someone else's boat I don't step off at all until the boat is secure. I prefer lines doubled back to the boat anyway. Sometimes the problem is that dock lines aren't long enough which is as big a problem as wind and current.

I think we may differ on the details, but not to the level of disagreement.

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Ah, I think you need to have a serious talk with a financial advisor. As the man once said, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.



You're thinking of spending 20 percent of your net worth -- maybe 30 or 35 percent after taxes -- on a depreciating, expensive-to-operate asset such as a 60-foot cat?


Let's say buying the boat leaves you with a net worth of $3.7 million. That sounds like a lot of money until you start doing the math. Then you discover you're really not wealthy.



An optimistic 7 percent return will give you 260K before taxes to operate the boat and support a family of four.That's middle-class living on land these days.



And when you're traveling in a million-dollar yacht, everyone sees you as a score to line their pockets. So prices go up.



Just doing a routine refit on a used boat that size can run you 50K. If there are real problems, start adding in multiples of 10K. Boatyards with Travel lifts that big will murder you for any work.



Insurance? 15-20K. Every time you pull into a dock, its going to cost you a couple hundred a night. Etc., etc., etc. That 260K a year is going to disappear quickly.



You won't fit under Intracoastal bridges. You'll probably have a deep enough draft to limit your anchoring choices in places with shallow water such as Florida and the Bahamas.


If I were your financial advisor, I would recommend against spending more than a couple of hundred thousand on a boat for a two-year trip.

This crowd is ridiculous.

I mentioned my finances only because as any nitwit knows it limits your choices. If I had one million mynplan would be ridiculous and if I had 20 million not an issue, I could hire a crew if need be. Duh.

Instead I get the Commies calling me a braggart or exploiter and the folks like above pointing out that my nest egg is actually pretty meager, which I agree with.

I know my budget is actually pretty limited.

The part of your analysis that you seem to have missed is these used 60 footers cost the same to purchase as a slightly newer 50 or brand new 45ish boat.

The entire point here is there is not a big demand for these boats. Just listen to all the nonfactual know nothings above who think the concept is insane without the slightest bid of data or experiance. That is why these boats are cheap for what you get.

I have no doubt that running a 60 is more expensive than running a 45. Duh. But really how much?

And if I want a fast 45 it will cost more than a Condo-like 60... and the joke is the 60 is faster in the real world.

Anyways, amongst the above posters were many that had actual experience or advice, not always in agreement with me and I thank you for it.

Given the huge uncertainties in the world today I am going to just work like a dog to build my nest egg and face the decision further down the road. I have 4.5 years left.

In the meantime I will most likely charter a 60 with crew sometime in the future to see what I would be getting into.