60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[Auspicious]

Okay. I'm caught up. *grin* The last couple of pages have been angry. Jeepers people. A little civility please.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I have 3 power boats 16 to 40 foot on the dock out back.

It isn't too early to sell a couple. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

In any case it would have to be the boat and not a learning boat.

Personally I support this attitude.

Originally Posted by Snore

A few folks mentioned the boom height. That should not be undervalued in the list of concerns!

Yes. Big BIG yes. Especially the clew end. Too many hard tops with no hand holds covered in solar you can't walk on. No way to hold the boom in place.

P.S. It's always 3am, it's always raining, and I'm always in my underwear.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I spend 24 years active and Reserve in the Marine Corps making average pay.

I figured you for a rotary guy. I told you I was in amphibs. I had the pleasure of dining with Commandant Gray twice at ASNE functions. His aide and I were casual friends for a while and went shooting together.

At a spec-reading session in the 80s (way before collaboration tools) for LCAC as a young mid-20s naval architect I overstepped my bounds and stood up to make an impassioned plea for A/C on the Marine side of LCAC. The Marine Colonel who was the senior rep to Navy PMS-377 stood up and did a slow clap. We got A/C for heavily loaded Marines heading ashore with big loads to get shot at.

So I'm caught up. If you want a 60' boat, buy a 60' boat. I and a few others have tried to help you with trade-offs without being judgmental. You determine if we have been successful.

My opinion is that you should keep looking at new 50'(ish) boats, at used 60'(ish) boats, and add used 50'(ish) boats. Get on boats and think about the things you can and cannot change. Don't narrow the field too quickly. In the end, you buy a boat, not a brand or model. One boat.

Let me know if I can help.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yeah but the cost is negligible
A couple of grand more in antifoul and travellift/hardstand over two years is $20/week
Vast increase in comfort levels is priceless

You're missing my issue. Not about cost - entirely about availability. How many haulouts in the South Pacific for 60' x 30'?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wawando

Great stuff, keep it coming!

As someone mentioned the most important for docking is practice because, with practice (and only with it, not training!) you automatically create a plan B and that is what gives you confidence and, as a consequence, to everyone who is on board.

Docking is not a one man operation. As has been mentioned several times, the most important thing is for the crew to all know what you are going to do, and what and when they are supposed to do AHEAD OF TIME. With more experience, they will also be told what you are going to do if plan A doesn't work out.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Snore

A few folks mentioned the boom height. That should not be undervalued in the list of concerns!

Getting up on the boom of a big cat is not easy. Even "smaller" boats like Lagoon 450's have high booms, and dicey access to the clew. I had a problem at the clew of a Lagoon 450- of course it happened at the right time - after sunset, 20kts and 8-10' seas.

Before leaving the dock I always rig jacklines, on both decks, forward to the mast and even loops to make getting up to the helm safe. There were no hard-points to rig a jack line to the aft end of the boom.

So--- when looking at cat, that will have the stated use of at least one major ocean crossing- the issue of access to both ends of the boom should be reviewed.

Not all boats are a block of flats like the lagoon

As mentioned earlier, Razzle Dazzle may still be for sale for around $500k
Joop is in his 70's and until recently, was still sailing her

https://www.facebook.com/groups/9457...83935598379697

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Not all boats are a block of flats like the lagoon...

Yeah, I was using the Privilege 585 (Sailing Zatara) as a working example since it's commonly available and seems to meet all of the OP's needs.

Regarding the boom height the general rule would be to stay away from boats with a flybridge or a particulary raised helm station which then also tends to have a bimini on top of it, worsening the problem even further...

For access to the mainsail clew boom end, and since many sailors now try to maximise the amount of installed solar, then the dinghy davit arch could be raised to be in line with the cockpit hard top, and more solar added there along with access to the end of the boom.

The bonus of that is that is also cleans up the view aft from the cockpit which is currently somewhat blocked on many boats with that type of arch. The dinghy generally sits below the line of sight but the associated domes and antennas that get fitted on the arch aren't.

Food for thought anyway

PS: Razzle Dazzle looks like a lot of boat for the money

[Lance]

I have owned and sailed several Cats in what they call the sweet spot size and had some experience with larger a 60 ftr too .
The sweet spot idea comes about due to simplicity and ease of handling and also most importantly the Anchor Size which might need to be pulled manually when all he'll breaks loose .
Too big in a mess and you are in trouble unless you cut it away .
You are rightfully wary of handling large heavy sails especially when reefing and in deteriorating conditions .
Holding course into a bouncy sea to flag that main and get it to drop can be challenging and dangerous .
I have seen some ugly results from electric winches take care .
So here I might suggest quite a different course .
If you search Harry Proa you will find a concept called the ORBITER .
As you are already considering going into the restricted range of oversized boats why not go a little longer anyway .
So as the above the comments regards reefing large mains are pretty much neutralized by the specific sail handling methods on these wishbone simple free standing rigs you can relax a lot more when the proverbial hits the main .
On a proa just let go the sheet to let it flag .
All theory here for me but a system I would appreciate and luv to try .
I expect much poohaa from mentioning a relatively new style of cruising but suggest you have time to do some research and then even employ a competant builder .
Oh these boats simplicity and avoidance of expensive hardware etc are also kinder to the kitty .

[jmh2002]

The OP is looking around the 60ft size because of the space, payload, and long distance remote cruising ability of a cat in that range for his proposed use, and his needs, and his family situation.

Some comments are missing that point.

So a cat in the low 40ft 'sweet spot' range doesn't meet that criteria for him, and even a performance 50ft might not either. A Harry Proa certainly doesn't - payload carrying capacity on the Proas is very low.

And why would you pull an anchor and chain manually?

In case of a windlass failure, use a spinnaker halyard (along the deck may work too depending on the boat's layout) and sheet/halyard winch (all the better if it's electric but manual will work too) to pull up section by section (20m/66ft or more at a time on 60ft cat's mast?), just like we used to do on the racing boats back in the day as they didn't have any anchor windlass at all.

(as a side note I'm surprised that more of the bigger cats don't come with 2 windlasses, since they tend to have at least 2 of everything else)

Perhaps there's lot's of 'cruisers' here, but maybe not so many 'sailors'?

Anyone who has not tried to do this should, so as to be prepared with a backup method in case of a windlass failure.

It's good to be familiar and able to use the boat's equipment in different ways for different purposes.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Sure, but once the line is in these type of docks staff's hands sometimes they become very obstinate. They seem to think they know better than the crew. Yes, the Captain's voice then gets used, but it's frustrating all the same.

Darn that’s a great idea! We usually waive them off but some want to be helpful and don’t get the message. This would alleviate that.

[Pelagic]

This has been interesting to follow as different sailors with different priorities chime in to invoke their own concerns.

No right or wrong ideas when brainstorming, so the anger and rudeness is unwarranted as Auspicious notes.

Only the OP can decide and he seems confident in his abilities to control big things and has not set himself any limits.

This is where we all differ and personally, I am the same type

Unlimited confidence in my ability to figure it out and work/study hard to make the best decisions

That doesn't mean I don't ask opinions to complement my own research.
But I am not seeking approval, just a wild cross section of often cautionary comments .... to see if I've missed something

I applaud the OP for doing that and while his search for comparable data on +60 ft cats operational costs might be thin for his purposes, all info adds to the pot.

In the end, his decision will be based not on hard data, but a gut feeling, kneaded over time.

[jmh2002]

If that was directed at me Pelagic, then I don't feel that I was being angry or rude... Apologies if anyone thought that

But unfortunately many just post thoughts, which might be good or interesting thoughts, but without reading and getting a feel for the OP's requirements they are often not applicable to the situation.

In addition in this thread we have quite often seen the thinking of 'it's too big when you can't do something by hand' - well, we may as well all stay in 30ft boats if that is the case...

Instead I think it's better to focus on how to do things, both physically as well as correctly and safely, as well as how to provide backups and alternatives when things don't work, or don't work as planned.

I'm always surprised by cruisers who have done perhaps tens of thousands of miles but don't think laterally regarding a problem and apply some seamanship or sailor skills. But I guess that may well be modern cruisers who have perhaps never learnt that seamanship or those sailor skills.

Most boats have a plethora of winches of different sizes and regardless of manual or powered they can be used for so many other different jobs onboard other than their original designed use.

On a boat with all manual winches, except maybe the anchor windlass, I think one of those powered winch handles (or battery drill equivalent) is a great idea to provide some extra power on deck. Even if you can physically handle something what happens if you get hurt, or sick, etc? Can the other crew manage? We add so much expensive tech onboard these days but sometimes forget the basics.

This was also addressed earlier in the thread when discussing a large mainsail and how to get it on and off (for it's once per year service?) Liferafts are another good example, they are often bulky and heavy - lift them with a halyard and a winch when shorthanded (or older, and maybe less strong as the years have passed).

You have large vessel experience so you also understand how to use equipment onboard to solve problems when they are too big to do by hand, but many others here possibly don't.

As a slight aside, your current boat is in the bigger size range and heavier displacement - do you have 2 anchor windlasses?

Are any of your deck winches powered?

I'm not looking to criticise, just asking out of interest

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

You're missing my issue. Not about cost - entirely about availability. How many haulouts in the South Pacific for 60' x 30'?

Yep, likely to be an issue if actually wanting. "real" lift
Noumea should be fine, plenty of big cats there.
Vanuatu at Efate and Santo as well

But a decent beach is an advantage for a cat and, with enough bodies could be manhandled up a beach.

If bodies and ingenuity can get a large phinnisi in and out a comparatively light multi should be doable.
Of coarse being able to carry all gear, tools, resin, glass, powersource out of water, antifoul, paints etc would be necessary, easy enough on that big cat.




https://www.indoyachts.com/breathing...o-the-phinisi/

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

For your AOR and time frame you'll want two haulouts.

My first career was a NAVSEA naval architect. I was part of the "fix this" team for the Midway in the mid-80s when you could barely land. Most of my career was amphibs. LSD-41 & 44, LPD SLEP, LHD, LCAC (I was at turnover for LCAC-1 and flew OTH on a later production LCAC from CB to Little Creek). I ran inclining experiments on older LSDs and LHAs

Why two haulouts?

Curious, when do LHAs roll over? We were taking 35 degree rolls, an LST that was part of the Task Force, the Germantown, was taking 45 degree rolls. The entire Task Force crawled down to a few knots because that was all the LST was able to do in this weather.

70 foot plus waves? No idea but they were crashing over the flightdeck?

Thanks in advance

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

If that was directed at me Pelagic, then I don't feel that I was being angry or rude... Apologies if anyone thought that

.............

You have large vessel experience so you also understand how to use equipment onboard to solve problems when they are too big to do by hand, but many others here possibly don't.

As a slight aside, your current boat is in the bigger size range and heavier displacement - do you have 2 anchor windlasses?

Are any of your deck winches powered?

I'm not looking to criticise, just asking out of interest

Not directed at anyone specific jmh, just reinforcing Auspicious' request for a nicer tone as we throw around ideas

When things go bad, from experience you need to have an assortment of solutions, depending on the size and timing of Murphy's hard on.

Taking the anchor scenario as an example.
On my own Lofrans Titan windlass, it has a manual lever you can see in the photo to recover if power fails.

Presently using to fine tune the roller on my new #13 Excel anchor.

If internal gears jammed, don't think I would use a Spinnaker halyard to hoist up as any surge and snag could be catastrophic for the masthead . Slower but a deck mounted manual winch would be my preference .

I don't have or need electric winches for my all roller furling schooner rig.

I also have a large D Shackle to capture the chain bight, use the Tender to slide along, bringing up in sections while stowing by hand... sea conditions permitting.

I also have 2 lift bags to use for laying out additional ground tackle if I found myself aground on a Lee shore.

Lastly, if threatening weather is an issue, I'm always prepared to let anchor go with a subsurface bouy, position fix and come back for it .

My point is, every scenario has a good and better solution that we learn as we gain experience and brainstorming in Forums like this.

I learn from everyone, even if it is only what not to do

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

When things go bad, from experience you need to have an assortment of solutions, depending on the size and timing of Murphy's hard on.

You are sure right about that

And I guess that was the point that I was trying to make. The boat and it's equipment when combined with the sailor's skills provide for an assortment of solutions to various problems and it not necessary to just throw one's hands up and say 'oh the mainsail is too large' or 'oh the anchor and chain are too heavy', etc (and ergo, the boat is too big too...)

Your Lofrans Titan windlass is a nice setup, probably larger and uglier (no offence) than most might want on their nice little 'yacht' but very appropriate for your boat.

I realise the single unit is more compact on the foredeck but I think I would prefer two separate and independant units if I was starting from scratch for ultimate backup. Space wise that's perhaps less achievable with the type of model you have but could easily be achieved with the smaller models normally fitted to production boats (often just a compact gypsy without a capstan).

Regardless of what piece of equipment is considered, having a built in back up or readily available alternative makes life a lot simpler when remote long distance cruising (or if simply wanting to be more self sufficient until repairs can be effected), despite the duplication that is of some concern in this thread when discussing bigger boats.

Lift bags are a useful piece of kit. I normally always carried one on boats that were voyaging, as opposed to marina hopping but I'm not sure that many of the smaller boat cruisers here are familiar with them, or capable of using them. On a superyacht, stern to in the Med with 2 anchors out, they may well get used daily of course.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My point is, every scenario has a good and better solution that we learn as we gain experience and brainstorming in Forums like this.

I learn from everyone, even if it is only what not to do

Fair comment

[Pelagic]

Jmh, location also plays a big part in choosing boat, equipment, SOP and solutions.

Living in the Philippines, you are on your own. No available coast guard, no sea-tow and if you found yourself on a Lee shore, the biggest danger would be the locals stripping it, if you went for help.

3rd world means self sufficiency and ability to take abuse so I chose a boat based on the following

For rust prevention Corten Steel, which will survive a grounding longer, as would full keel, double bottom, heavy skeg rudder, no exposed shaft were all a recognition that I live in a Typhoon area.

The anchor windlass should be over built and used with longevity in mind.
So with that mindset, I never power out the windlass to make sure the internal gears don't stress if the chain jumps the gypsy. Clutch out and free wheel

The heavy lift Titan B is overkill and has saved my bacon and other boats a number of times.

I don't feel the need for 2 independent anchor units as the gearing is immensely strong and submerged in gear oil for those who do like to power out .

Maybe if I was cruising between marinas in a first world area, aesthetics would be a higher priority for me ...(but probably not!)