60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I retire in 2025. Between my wife and I we have 4 million in retirement savings. Most of that is in 401k's, so pre-tax. We also have a million in Real Estate equity between two properties.



We want to take a two year sailing trip when I retire.



Just started actually looking at boats in person. New Catamarans in the 50 foot range are upwards of a million dollars.



What we have noticed is used (6 to 15 year old) 60 foot Cats going for about the same. These boats were originally 3 million (+/-) dollar boats. They tend to be in great condition and are huge. Even the condo crusiers in this range are fast, longer waterline etc.



My two questions are:



1. maintenance costs vs a used or new 50 footer? They tend to have two generators, two water makers, and other redundant systems.



2. Can a couple handle one of these monsters? All electric winches and etc. Frankly I am a bit terrified by how huge these boats are. Those gigantic sails etc seem daunting.



My sons will be 13 and 15 by then, so they will help. I am thinking of taking on a crew member? Another cruising couple that might want to share a portion of expenses and labor in return for a dream/nightmare (lol) cruise?



Someone with big Catamaran experience - what say you??

Boat management is Boat management whether it is 60 foot or 60 meters.

If you have the energy and the intelligence to assign and execute, then all that remains is to become proactive in maintenance and operation.

One of the weaknesses I often observe in commercial airline pilots becoming large yacht owners, is an overconfidence, that they can easily adapt.

Just remember, the pilot doesn't manage the airline.

Good luck in your search and survey of the right Boat for you.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Boat management is Boat management whether it is 60 foot or 60 meters.

If you have the energy and the intelligence to assign and execute, then all that remains is to become proactive in maintenance and operation.

One of the weaknesses I often observe in commercial airline pilots becoming large yacht owners, is an overconfidence, that they can easily adapt.

Just remember, the pilot doesn't manage the airline.

Good luck in your search and survey of the right Boat for you.

Admittedly a small sample, but I have two commercial pilots on my crew and have never met more careful or prepared people.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Admittedly a small sample, but I have two commercial pilots on my crew and have never met more careful or prepared people.

I agree, an airline pilot, by the very nature of their job has that well trained ability to be prepared for almost anything.

But, maybe in just my limited observations...
.... when they become yacht Owners nearing retirement mode something seems to happen and they take a far more casual approach to boating.

Perhaps they feel this is a step down in responsibility, they've had far more demanding training, proven their abilities, but this is theirs and they want to have fun!

In racing, they are the most aggressive.
In cruising, they are the heaviest drinkers.

Again, just my observations of some I know well, so not a slam against pilots, but maybe valid in that it is a reaction to all that pent up restraint, when they are flying

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Admittedly a small sample, but I have two commercial pilots on my crew and have never met more careful or prepared people.

I know one who came into a harbour in a cat under instruments, not eyes, and ended up with guys on surfboards beside them in the same wave pattern and then got out of shape when they realized where they were at and **** their pants .

No one died but if they had been paying attention in the real world they would have been several hundred metres to the north and not had an issue

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

they take a far more casual approach to boating.

I would suggest these sorts of generalizations can be directional but are quite weak predictors.

One of the best owners I knew was a retired Marine fighter pilot. He was up early every morning, literally using a toothbrush to clean his boat some of those mornings while anchored in the pacific islands.

But I have known others, who have been as you describe.

I would say that the broadly best owners I have encountered have been emt techs (and emergency room doctors and such), and their best 'first mates' have been school teachers.

Broadly the worst owners have been high-end corporate businessmen. (these comments are related to owner-operated boats - pro crew operated boats are a quite different 'management' environment with different 'management success requirements).

More predictive for me are whether they have bucket loads of tenacity and are both smart and humble enough to learn.

It is an interesting question. We have tried to help quite a number of people decide whether and how they should go blue-water cruising and trying to determine whether they will like it or be good at it is an interesting discussion. The majority of people seem fundamentally not suited to it - thinking it is going to be some sort of holiday, which it is not.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Admittedly a small sample, but I have two commercial pilots on my crew and have never met more careful or prepared people.

Yes. They can bring some strange habits over.

My previous monohull was owned by a federal commercial airline safety guy.

He overdid a lot of stuff on it, sticking to airworthiness standards rather than seaworthiness standards. He seemed to have gotten tired of the maintenance, but he made it 10x harder and more expensive. Then there’s were other areas he didn’t know the marine way to do things and got them wrong.

It was a strange mixture of skill sets translated over to boats from airline safety.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I know one who came into a harbour in a cat under instruments, not eyes, and ended up with guys on surfboards beside them in the same wave pattern and then got out of shape when they realized where they were at and **** their pants .

No one died but if they had been paying attention in the real world they would have been several hundred metres to the north and not had an issue

No IFR-only for us. Ha ha ha

[wawando]

Today a couple in the 60s arrived at my marina and parked this beauty solo, no stress!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wawando

Today a couple in the 60s arrived at my marina and parked this beauty solo, no stress!

Ummm... how does a couple do something solo?

Jim

[wawando]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ummm... how does a couple do something solo?

Jim

Hehehe

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

The majority of people seem fundamentally not suited to [the cruising life] - thinking it is going to be some sort of holiday, which it is not.

What Breaking Waves said:
No, it is not.

Here's a post recounted by another Member on a different thread. This is one reason why I'm always advocating smaller-is-better:

Older boat. In-mast sail. You might want to post asking what other sailors did when their in-mast furling system failed.

There is a very old saying that anyone can hoist a sail, but it takes a sailor to pull it down.

I talked to a very experienced sailor with a stunning 60’ yacht who had an in-mast system fail. He had one professional crew and a young, strong son aboard. They had to cut the mainsail off in high winds. He told me it was the most frightening experience he had ever had at sea. His son stood on the boom and slashed away at the sail with a knife on a stick. They did this until the sail ripped into ribbons. They considered themselves lucky to have survived without a mast failure.

* * * *
They were very lucky.

Imagine if the son had been knocked off that boom in a building storm and high winds. You ALL know how high cat booms are off the deck. (Take a look, for a moment, at the boom of the 60-footer in the picture above.) They never would have recovered him.

What if the main hadn't shredded? What happened after the main was in ribbons? How did that windage affect that cat's ability to handle the rest of the storm? (If the weather was bad enough and there was sea room, one would expect they would have turned downwind and run before the wind. What happened to those main-ribbons then? Did they foul the forestay - again, creating weird forces on the one of two things holding up the mast...). What heavy-weather tactics were needed/employed?

It's all very well to casually state, "I'm going to buy a 60'-foot catamatan [in my retirement = +60's couple(?)] and go sailing for 2 years".

This is seriously backwards, in my opinion.

First, a sailor must consider the size of boat that they can safely operate, at whatever-their-age(s) and crew compliment, their ability to manage that size of boat and its loads (how big/heavy is the anchor? What if the windless fails?) and also consider stories like the above: what will be the impacts in a boat that size when it all goes to hell in a handbasket?

Once those elements are considered, THEN select the size of the boat - and fit the family into that space.

Fair winds,
LittleWing77

[Auspicious]

Sorry to be late to the party. I've managed to read through the first eighty posts so what I have to offer may be redundant.

Context: I am a naval architect and marine engineer (Webb '82) on my third career doing deliveries, yacht management, and electronics and networking.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

My two questions are:

1. maintenance costs vs a used or new 50 footer? They tend to have two generators, two water makers, and other redundant systems.

2. Can a couple handle one of these monsters? All electric winches and etc. Frankly I am a bit terrified by how huge these boats are. Those gigantic sails etc seem daunting.

Maintenance goes up a lot with boat size. So does operation. The cube "law" is close but depends on the complexity of the boat.

I have yet to see two watermakers on a big cat. Usually with two generators the watermaker is forward of the saloon in a locker in the pit or "forward cockpit." The closest I've seen to two watermakers is a Spectra Cape Horn where you can run one or two membranes.

I have some firm opinions about multiple generators. I think that better than a 6/10, 6/12, or 8/16 you're actually better off with three 6's or 8's with a frequency synchronizer. Better redundancy, more flexibility, and one set of spares. I digress - not relevant to a used boat.

Can a couple handle a 60' cat? Of course. It's just a matter of training and practice. Part of what I do is owner-aboard training and certification when someone buys more boat than their insurance company is comfortable with. I've built a curriculum based on the requirements of a number of insurance companies plus stuff that insurance doesn't care about that contributes to a happier cruising experience. I'm happy to share that experience BEFORE you buy a boat so you make a more informed decision.

There are issues related to size. For cats, the first is beam. In my home grounds of Chesapeake Bay there are only five places that can haul out more than a 24' beam. You get over 27' and there is--I think--one. That's a marine railway so you have to plan ahead as when they haul you they leave you there until you're done. The Sequoia sat on one track for years. You can run over to the shipyard in Salisbury and use the dry dock but that is pricey. There are some other creative solutions but none are cheap. You're going to need to come out for bottom paint at least every couple of years (more often crossing the Pacific as there are requirements for NZ and Oz). As more and more boats use sail drives you have to come out for seal service which is critically important. The very first thing I would do on ANY boat with sail drives is check the maintenance interval. Many are not long enough to be practical.

Also related to size is length. In places dominated by mooring balls you may be too big and end up anchored in a roadstead. That isn't bad per se but it does require some adjustment.

Larger boats tend to be a little more deluxe, often with technology for its own sake. Do you know how long it takes to track down and resolve radio interference from "soft touch" light switches? Unfortunately I do. I've moved boats with six independent WiFi access points where manual controls were buried in lockers. One boat needed TWO iPads to fuel - one for gauges and one for managing the fuel transfer system.

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I think she would be fine on doing watches and helping with dock lines? That is about it.

Not to dive into pink and blue jobs or gender stereotypes, but in general men have more upper body strength than women. That makes anchoring and dock lines blue jobs and driving a pink job.

Originally Posted by Snore

The bigger cats I have run tend to have "winch farms" or clusters of winches. If one has an issue, you can route the line to another, there may be some minor chafe- but you have an option. That said, so far, I have not had an electric fail on me. Electric winches can also be operated manually.

One major problem with the winch farms is the amount of winch tension consumed by friction. That can easily be half IF you maintain all the leads and replace your lines regularly. It gets worse. That's the way the boats are built. It just is. You aren't going to change it.

Originally Posted by Snore

Keeping out of trouble- the trick to moving the big boats short handed is preparation, and staying ahead of the boat.

This is a critical point. I'll add to it: never be too proud to go around and try again. "Well that fuel dock doesn't look like we expected - let's sit out here and think about this." "More current than we expected right onto the dock - let's think about this a bit a decide if we want to go anchor until slack current." I've Med-moored onto fuel docks in the US (that draws a crowd! *grin*) because it was the best way to keep control of the boat.

I have a bit of a rant here. You can stop reading if you want. Dock hands are the single greatest risk to recreational boaters there is. There are exceptions. In general they don't know how to cleat a line. They think they are in charge and yell at your deck crew (who need to be trained that no line goes over until YOU say so). They don't understand the concept of taking a turn on a cleat or a piling to pull against. Way too many of them don't even carry a radio. You have to learn to be self-sufficient. This goes to @Snore's point about preparation and having a plan and mine about standing off or going around again if things are not as they seemed.

I have a base plan for docking. I get the boat as close and slow as I can and get a breast line over and pull against that to get a stern line on. I then have time to sort things out with crossed stern line(s), bow line, and spring lines. The base plan doesn't always work. Wind, current, other boats may make getting a bow or stern line on first to pull against or lead a line to a winch to warp the boat in. Regardless, my preference is for long dock lines that can go ashore and double back to the boat so we are self sufficient.

I would tip this lady to walk away and leave me alone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWYgcgkreoI

There is no place for circus acts on the dock. Here is "right" in the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdu1xuJpJEw

. In ROTW there is often an extra half turn before the figure eight. This is slightly more secure but also prone to jamming.

I seem to have digressed. *grin* The point is that with a big boat you can't expect some dock hand to bail you out at a fuel dock and certainly not in an awkward slip. It is the boat driver's job to get the boat close enough and slow enough for deck crew to step (never jump) off the boat wearing high heels. If you aren't that close and that slow then you go around and try again. This takes practice - not just training, but PRACTICE. That requires discipline and a personal commitment.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

It is the boat driver's job to get the boat close enough and slow enough for deck crew to step (never jump) off the boat wearing high heels. If you aren't that close and that slow then you go around and try again. This takes practice - not just training, but PRACTICE. That requires discipline and a personal commitment.

I'd like to see your crew step off a 60 ft catamaran with 8 ft freeboard, high heels OR barefoot.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'd like to see your crew step off a 60 ft catamaran with 8 ft freeboard, high heels OR barefoot.

Generally you put people off the swim step on floating docks. On fixed docks it all depends. If you need to rig a ladder or a step you do. Again that goes to preparation and planning. One, two, or three steps up the swim step is usually the answer.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Generally you put people off the swim step on floating docks. On fixed docks it all depends. If you need to rig a ladder or a step you do. Again that goes to preparation and planning. One, two, or three steps up the swim step is usually the answer.

Right. So you now have 1 or 2 people on the dock at the back of a 60 ft boat which is starting to be blown away from the dock.

I had that situation this week on a 72 ft mono with no bow thruster. I prepped them on getting the aft spring on first, but 2 dock hands showed up and I went with plan B--throw bow and stern lines to the dock hands, and be prepared to abort if one of them fails to be secured.