60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by tp12

I'm still racing but also earning an income from crewing these days - life's pretty good. Lying in Breakwater Marina in Townsville right now. Friendly bunch up here matching your experience - be nice and get nice

I know you're not concerned I was trying to help others understand the benefit of easily driven hulls and light weight equates to smaller sail sizes and load for similar speeds. Checking boat-spec.com the Outremer 5x has a main of 125m2 compared to your 75m2.....

Obviously sail material has an impact as well as size but I think we can all agree that there's a significant difference between sail sizes.

You're living the dream mate. Things are looking better on that front for me too. Hope to see you out there

TP

Thanks TP.

I think you've made a good point there. Light cats (at least ours) seem to be more manageable than heavy cats sailed by some of the posters on this thread. At least that's what I'm learning from the comments on this thread.

We're almost living the dream, at least I can taste it. My wife's still working, but she's on track for an early retirement. We choose to do more with less. Easier for us, with no kids, than for most folks.

If you do see us out there, please be sure to stop by and say hello.

Cheers.
Paul.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks TP.

I think you've made a good point there. Light cats (at least ours) seem to be more manageable than heavy cats sailed by some of the posters on this thread. At least that's what I'm learning from the comments on this thread.

We're almost living the dream, at least I can taste it. My wife's still working, but she's on track for an early retirement. We choose to do more with less. Easier for us, with no kids, than for most folks.

If you do see us out there, please be sure to stop by and say hello.

Cheers.
Paul.

I admire your boat choice because loads are very important and directly relate to sail handling, ease of sailing the boat. Obviously along with hull shape

Ok so you're almost there! Ha, I wish you the best.

I'll definitely dinghy up to Grit if I see her. I'll expect beer, too!

TP

[GRIT]

We'll keep one on ice for you!

Stay well.
Paul.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Chotu

No doubt about it. I agree with you.

The mainsail is a big issue. Especially another step up to a 60. In fact, my first post in this thread said the same thing.

Imagine having to take that sail off for repair of if weather is expected.

I’m sure winches can control it, but handling it off the mast and boom seems problematic at best. Possible back injuries, dropping it in the water, etc.

When we take off the main we'll gasket it, leaving the battens in and pull the pins from the Batt Cars. We lift it with two halyards, holding it back with a line and lay it on the dock. When on the dock we remove the full length battens and brick the sail. It takes about two hours. It probably weighs 250#'s.

It's not a hard job if you know how to do it.

[Narfi]

To be fair here, some people are talking about apples and others about carrots.
IMO one tastes better dipped in spicy hummus and the other better dipped in caramel.

They aren't the same type of food and when craving one, the other won't satisfy.

The production 50fts are too small for him, they are in the 16-17+ ton range and all the area and comfort that comes with a yacht that heavy, not big enough.

But then compare it to a 60ft yacht like this,
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...am-60-3857148/
at 11tons it has less living space and less load carrying capacity than the 50ft yachts he is wanting larger than. It has a shorter mast and smaller sails, etc.... everything that comes with being a lighter yacht.

Grit and Chotu's are then even smaller than that slimmed down to 50ft, more comparable to what? a 40-45ft FP or lagoon?

Length isn't everything....

[dannc]

Originally Posted by lightguy

Different strokes for different folks...

Originally Posted by dc9loser

...
Everyone has different situations.
....

Exactly.

On this forum one frequently hears the mantra to get the boat now and go. It might work for some but having kids complicates things. Having parents that need help complicates things.

Just to run off is not possible, and if was, very likely irresponsible.

Later,
Dan

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Joli

When we take off the main we'll gasket it, leaving the battens in and pull the pins from the Batt Cars. We lift it with two halyards, holding it back with a line and lay it on the dock. When on the dock we remove the full length battens and brick the sail. It takes about two hours. It probably weighs 250#'s.

It's not a hard job if you know how to do it.

I was going to post something similar

Just like the 'docking by hand' posts earlier once again I ask why do people think they should be doing all of these things by hand, and brute strength? This indicates to me that people are 'doing it wrong' as their boats get bigger. Are people still thinking that they should row their boats too, instead of using the power assistance provided by the engine(s)?

And how often are people taking their mainsails on and off - I don't see the need to do it very often. Why is it a primary consideration? If people are damaging their mainsails so often then again they are 'doing it wrong'.

On any reasonable sized boat just get it off the rig, package it up ('brick the sail' is the correct term that Joli used - I suspect he is an ex-racer), and as Joli mentioned use halyards to move it around and lift it on and off the boat. Use the spinnaker pole or the boom if you need help to swing it out over the dock or into a dinghy.

Does this take longer with 1 or 2 than with a full crew? Yes of course. But is it perfectly doable? Yes of course! Again we are not talking about a superyacht here - people need to get a grip a bit about 'huge, massive, etc' - it's funny in comparison to other boats and other experiences. Everything is relative.

You can make do with just forming up a lashing with a piece of spare line around the bricked sail, but a nicer setup is that the sail bags (or a specific sail bag for this purpose) should be sufficiently constructed, including webbing lifting points. This can also be a long racing type sausage style bag if you have higher tech sails that you would prefer not to fold too much.

As another option, people with bigger boats generally have more money. They can just pay people to do things, including gathering up some people from neighbouring boats in the anchorage to help with a project in exchange for a few beers later (or just cash), or in the developed world simply calling the sail loft or the boatyard and telling them to come and deal with it.

The whole 'it can't be done' line of commentary here really does indicate a lack of experience and/or a lack of willingness to learn by some.

In closing I'll refer back to GRIT's earlier comment

Originally Posted by GRIT

I've noticed that those posters who say it can't be done, aren't doing it; while those who say it can be done, are doing it. Perhaps it would be better for those not doing it, to lay off the conjecture, and listen to those who know how to do it.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Joli

When we take off the main we'll gasket it, leaving the battens in and pull the pins from the Batt Cars. We lift it with two halyards, holding it back with a line and lay it on the dock. When on the dock we remove the full length battens and brick the sail. It takes about two hours. It probably weighs 250#'s.



It's not a hard job if you know how to do it.

This.

The difference between a 50’ cat’s cruising main and that of a 60’ cat is marginal - both are too big and heavy to handle by hand and Joli explained how to do it.

BTW, our new membrane string mainsail is heavier than the tri-radial HydraNet sail it replaced. However, we did spec it for extended cruising so it has lots of extra material on both sides to protect the membrane from UV and chafe.

To the OP, just ignore all the naysayers who haven’t got the larger cat experience. A few experienced people have explained that handling the larger cat is not much different from a smaller one - once you’re over about 40’ of cruising cat you’re no longer managing by human strength anyway. Just about any boat with an autopilot can be single handed - all you need to check is whether all controls for a particular job are co-located at the mast and/or the cockpit and/or the helm station(s). Or retro-fit. Easy.

After your initial refit your only expenses over the next 2 years will be consumables and emergency failures. Maintenance costs are immaterial and most can be done by teenagers or cheap hired labour.

I would like to point out that 2 years from the US E coast to New Caledonia is pretty fast. What’s the rush?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by fxykty

This.

The difference between a 50’ cat’s cruising main and that of a 60’ cat is marginal - both are too big and heavy to handle by hand and Joli explained how to do it.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

The whole 'it can't be done' line of commentary here really does indicate a lack of experience and/or a lack of willingness to learn by some.

It's good, "can it be done" is resolved!

"Should it be done" is not what the OP asked, but I attempted earlier to ask for the best reasons to do so.

The majority opinion here and elsewhere has been more in the lines of "go as small as possible". Is there a good case for "go as big as possible" as well? In a cost-benefit analysis, how does the benefit part shape up as you increase the size/volume of everything?

Well, all sailors and boat models are individual/different, so I'm sure there are no categorical answers to these questions.

It's just something I've been thinking about myself, though. Comparing an Outremer 51 to the 5X, for instance. Do sailors of 50ft Outremers sail around dreaming about sailing (equally young) 60ft Outremers for great reasons?

[Talon cruise]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I retire in 2025. Between my wife and I we have 4 million in retirement savings. Most of that is in 401k's, so pre-tax. We also have a million in Real Estate equity between two properties.



We want to take a two year sailing trip when I retire.



Just started actually looking at boats in person. New Catamarans in the 50 foot range are upwards of a million dollars.



What we have noticed is used (6 to 15 year old) 60 foot Cats going for about the same. These boats were originally 3 million (+/-) dollar boats. They tend to be in great condition and are huge. Even the condo crusiers in this range are fast, longer waterline etc.



My two questions are:



1. maintenance costs vs a used or new 50 footer? They tend to have two generators, two water makers, and other redundant systems.



2. Can a couple handle one of these monsters? All electric winches and etc. Frankly I am a bit terrified by how huge these boats are. Those gigantic sails etc seem daunting.



My sons will be 13 and 15 by then, so they will help. I am thinking of taking on a crew member? Another cruising couple that might want to share a portion of expenses and labor in return for a dream/nightmare (lol) cruise?



Someone with big Catamaran experience - what say you??

We are a couple, just retired from the Airline industry. We just bought a Sunreef 62’ a couple of months ago. While my wife had no sailing experience, I had some experience in sailing monohulls in the 40’ range, but many years ago.
I hired a captain for 3 months to get a good handover and a good sailing introduction with the 62’ Catamaran. Unfortunately the paperwork, where we bought the boat took much longer than expected and the three months with the captain have passed without a single sail.
So we ended up sailing off without any experience on this quite big Catamaran. I must admit it was quite daunting in the beginning, but I took a very conservative approach to “the learn by doing process”. The learning curve was steep and very soon we got used to the boat.
Maybe my experience as a pilot for the Air Force and later as an Airline Pilot has helped, but I think it is manageable for most sailors. Although I highly recommend to hire a captain for a few sails, so you don’t have to go thru the same experiences as we did.

Now to your questions:
1. Obviously the maintenance expenses for a 10 year old boat are much higher than from a new boat. You have to expect, that you have to refit a lot of equipment, but at the end of the day you get a lot of boat with partly new equipment for a fraction of the price you’d pay for the same new boat with similar equipment.
We have two generators, two water-maker... and yes I think redundancy is great. The maintenance costs are not much higher because you use each generator only half the time. I have also added 4kW of Solar and 35kW of Lithium in addition to the 24v house bank batteries, which made a big difference. I can even use A/C thru out the night without generator. Solar is enough to charge the batteries for the usage of normal appliances, but if I use the water-maker or A/C then I have to recharge the batteries also with the generator.
Now to the numbers:
The costs may vary quite a lot, depending on the age and condition of the boat, and also on your refit plans.
We will end up spending about 25% from the purchase price for the first year. That includes the upgrades, maintenance, insurance etc...
Without upgrades the following years should end up between 5 and 10% of the original purchase price.

2. Yes it is manageable with the consideration I gave above. To make it easier I would like to upgrade the genoa and Code 0 with electric furling. I will also get an UV protection for the code 0, so I will have less hassle getting it up and down. A furling system for the main sail would make things even much easier to sail with a small crew.

This is only my opinion with the limited experiences we made so far. (We were sailing 1.500NM so far with our boat).


I wish you good luck for your decision and remember size matters....[emoji4][emoji4][emoji4]

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

It's good, "can it be done" is resolved!

"Should it be done" is not what the OP asked, but I attempted earlier to ask for the best reasons to do so.

The majority opinion here and elsewhere has been more in the lines of "go as small as possible". Is there a good case for "go as big as possible" as well? In a cost-benefit analysis, how does the benefit part shape up as you increase the size/volume of everything?

Well, all sailors and boat models are individual/different, so I'm sure there are no categorical answers to these questions.

It's just something I've been thinking about myself, though. Comparing an Outremer 51 to the 5X, for instance. Do sailors of 50ft Outremers sail around dreaming about sailing (equally young) 60ft Outremers for great reasons?

We've cruised full time, aboard a 35 foot monohull, a 39 foot monohull and a 50 foot catamaran. The main difference, in my mind, is comfort, and safety.

On our 35 footer, *20 knots seemed like a lot of wind. On the 39 footer *30 knots would make us a little uneasy. On the cat, unless it's ahead of the beam, 20 to 30 knots is not uncomfortable, or unnerving.

Unless there's wind against current, 20 knots is very pleasant behind the beam, and a little "sporty" on a close reach. *30 knots is pleasant behind the beam, and comfortable on the beam, but we've not had to beat into 30 knots. I'm sure I'll find an alternative if that situation comes up.

Cruising on our 35 footer was an adventure (in our 20's), on the 39 footer we felt like explorers, on the 50 foot cat, we're just travelling. No fuss.

As you get longer, you get more comfortable, and steadier. I haven't sailed on a 60 foot catamaran, but I imagine it'll be even more comfortable than we are now. Certainly more room, and air conditioning would be a dream! I'd probably also have a dedicated freezer for ice cream.

The "go as small as possible" otherwise known as "go small, go now" is great, and get's folks out cruising, who might not go otherwise. But if you can afford to go big, I'd highly suggest you do so.

No one is as comfortable, or happy, in a Nissan Micra as they would be in a Rolls Royce. You can choose the Micra, but if you can afford the Rolls, why would you?


Cheers.
Paul.

* Disclaimer, for those who insist on arguing: These numbers are guesses, estimates conjured in my memory, as it's been a long time since we sailed on a 35 footer. So don't get your knickers in a knot, saying 20 knots isn't much wind, maybe it was 25, we didn't have an anemometer aboard. I'm guessing at the windspeeds. The point is, bigger is more comfortable.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Joli

When we take off the main we'll gasket it, leaving the battens in and pull the pins from the Batt Cars. We lift it with two halyards, holding it back with a line and lay it on the dock. When on the dock we remove the full length battens and brick the sail. It takes about two hours. It probably weighs 250#'s.

It's not a hard job if you know how to do it.

That’s a pretty cool approach. Like Grit said... you’ll figure out a way to do it. And it looks like you’ve figured out a great way to handle a heavy main.

I never knew of this work around. Here I am all these years moving mainsails around like a chump. Ha ha. I’ll have to try this. Been treating bigger boats like smaller ones forever.

[Manateeman]

Catamaran People...a question.
I read the original posters two questions and I got to thinking about the Chris White mast foil I saw. Two things struck me. One, It’s a pretty big boat. Two, It looks reasonable to manage ...but that I mean, two people sailed a long way and they still looked pretty happy.
I think the rig might be part of the happy.
So...the OP has funds. Would any current Chris White or a custom larger one just be safer? I ask, because it didn’t need a manatee crew and if one person was injured, it looked...more manageable.
You know, dark and stormy night and something breaks, sets on fire, etc.
Last question. Are foil masts safer period?
Happy trails to all.
Captain Mark who wishes to warn you the ORCAS knocking on your boat are just my manatee crew dressed up for Halloween.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by GRIT

We've cruised full time, aboard a 35 foot monohull, a 39 foot monohull and a 50 foot catamaran. The main difference, in my mind, is comfort, and safety.

On our 35 footer, *20 knots seemed like a lot of wind. On the 39 footer *30 knots would make us a little uneasy. On the cat, unless it's ahead of the beam, 20 to 30 knots is not uncomfortable, or unnerving.

Unless there's wind against current, 20 knots is very pleasant behind the beam, and a little "sporty" on a close reach. *30 knots is pleasant behind the beam, and comfortable on the beam, but we've not had to beat into 30 knots. I'm sure I'll find an alternative if that situation comes up.

Cruising on our 35 footer was an adventure (in our 20's), on the 39 footer we felt like explorers, on the 50 foot cat, we're just travelling. No fuss.

As you get longer, you get more comfortable, and steadier. I haven't sailed on a 60 foot catamaran, but I imagine it'll be even more comfortable than we are now. Certainly more room, and air conditioning would be a dream! I'd probably also have a dedicated freezer for ice cream.

The "go as small as possible" otherwise known as "go small, go now" is great, and get's folks out cruising, who might not go otherwise. But if you can afford to go big, I'd highly suggest you do so.

No one is as comfortable, or happy, in a Nissan Micra as they would be in a Rolls Royce. You can choose the Micra, but if you can afford the Rolls, why would you?


Cheers.
Paul.

* Disclaimer, for those who insist on arguing: These numbers are guesses, estimates conjured in my memory, as it's been a long time since we sailed on a 35 footer. So don't get your knickers in a knot, saying 20 knots isn't much wind, maybe it was 25, we didn't have an anemometer aboard. I'm guessing at the windspeeds. The point is, bigger is more comfortable.

Thank you for the answer!

(We're on that same path and contemplating the 50ft catamaran at the moment )