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Old 27-05-2022, 15:33   #61
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
You of have to compare apples to apples. So maybe compare the Outremere to a Shipman 63. The Shipman will sail from St Martin to the Chesapeake in 5 days. We don't sail a traditional cruising boat. Our long term average for passaging is about 180 miles a day. We'll easily sail with an assy in light wind (8 apparent) at 9 or 10 knots.


Let me rephrase this.
What are the true wind angles and wind speeds when flying the asym in light wind (8 apparent) and making 9-10 kts?
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Old 27-05-2022, 19:15   #62
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

I suggest $1500 for a sunfish and $1500 for a Hobie 16, and spend the rest on sailing lessons.
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Old 27-05-2022, 23:17   #63
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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Us? That's our average for they past 3 years and 20,000 miles. Winds we're light and variable to 55 knots, upwind, downwind and reaching.
The Shipman, it sailed from the Chesapeake to Antigua in seven days, upwind, in a big breeze by a solo sailor. Downwind back to the Chesapeake that boat will make some very high averages. I have no doubt it'll average 12~13 knots.
So it will make averages better than its hull speed?
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Old 30-05-2022, 09:38   #64
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

My major blue water trips have all been in cats except for one Bermuda to Gloucester in an H SW ‘42. For offshore passages the cats were all more comfortable. Imagine crossing the Gulf Stream and sitting down to nice dinner at the salon table. I sail a monohull for cruising the NE US.
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Old 31-05-2022, 08:42   #65
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

Let's quit arguing and get practical. Both types of boat will get you there, assuming you know what you're doing.

- Bravo to the person that said spend $300-400k since you'll spend the rest fitting to your needs.
- In the Med west of Greece, expect to pay at least 2x for a cat to moor. Everywhere in the Med anything over 12m is both much more expensive and more difficult to steer in a marina since space is much tighter. We have a Valiant 42, 12.2m which is how we know.
- Winds in the Med during the summer are either 0 or above 20 knots. Occasionally you get lucky and get flat seas with 14 knots of wind on the beam, so most charterers motor more than half the time. We sail whenever we can, but it's lonely once the wind picks up in the Med.
- Monohulls are slower than cats. Except when they aren't. We averaged 152 miles/day crossing to the Azores from St. Martin. Lots of cats and monohulls don't leave the marina. We are much much faster than any boat that stays at dock.
- Big boats cost more. Small boats are cheaper. If you have a big budget, go big. If you have a smaller budget, stay under 40'.
- We noticed in the BVI there are a lot more powered cats these days. It seems sailboats, especially monohulls are rapidly becoming a thing of the past for charter companies.
- It appears there are twice as many systems to fail on a cat if you're going long distances. But on the other hand you have redundancy.

You pay your money, you take your choice. You can always sell the boat and buy another. Especially if you're blessed with a big budget.

Have fun!
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Old 31-05-2022, 09:21   #66
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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Yes, seen it.

The proof is in the pudding: watch a monohull come into port after a passage and you’ll see unwashed and tired people hanging out stuff to dry. Watch a catamaran come into port and they’re sitting on their cockpit cushions enjoying a drink.
I own a monohull, and charter cats. The above is absolutely true!! After a passage, I have worked, for sure. I tell myself it's part of the "exhilaration".

I get uneasy in a big sea on a cat though and sometimes the bridge deck slamming is disconcerting. Both issues are greater in my head than reality, admittedly.

You'll come to love the boat you pick, mono or cat. It's a relationship. You take care and love her, she cares for you and loves you back. That means no shortcuts on PREVENTATIVE maintenance, pick good weather windows so you don't stress the boat or yourselves unnecessarily, and try not to bring a schedule on board (the most dangerous thing aboard).

For the type of sailing and cruising most people do, the cat will be more comfortable, especially at anchor or moored. Although many of us think we are in the Vendee every time we go out (ok... maybe just me), once your boat is loaded with fuel, water, people, provisions, gear, the performance piece takes a hit, so don't big down too much with performance aspects.

The living arrangements on catamarans also differ. Some of them, like the Catanas make excellent use of the whole space by putting the galley down. Some of the more charter friendly boats, like leopards and lagoons, have galley up in the main saloon. Also, you'll have to decide whether you want a sail drive or shaft drive. I believe the Catanas still used shaft drives and that is important in terms of upkeep and maintenance. Shaft drives can be fixed most anywhere whereas sail drives require specific parts.

I really love the Catanas. They are well built, sail to weather very well with the dagger boards, they look great and sail great. As I said, I have a monohull and I love her! She takes me wherever I want to go, but when I chart I usually charter catamarans for the ease of living.

The other thing to consider is that sailing characteristics are very different for both types of vessels. Although the basics of sail handling and sail shape are similar, there are differences in when to reef and, obviously, how to handle in close quarters. Just remember, whatever boat you buy you'll probably need $25,000 or so for some upgrades and equipment replacement.

Best of luck on your journey,
Ben
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Old 31-05-2022, 12:04   #67
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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I would suggest that you charter both and see which you prefer. As a live aboard a cat is like having a condo, which is why women prefer them. As a sailboat I would go for a monohull for windward performance.
If you want to talk about performance oriented monohulls, you need to compare to performance oriented cats...and then it's not even close though at $500k, neither is going to be luxury accommodations if you want high performance.

A lot of the prime cruising oriented monohulls need to motorsail to go to weather.

You have to compare apples to apples.
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Old 02-06-2022, 05:16   #68
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

I'm a Brit, spent the last 15 years in the Med so have actual experience

With the exception of La Linea in Spain (Gibraltar), Ragusa in Sicily (out of season) and Leros in Greece catamarans are heavily penalised in most Med marinas.

There's a lot of windward sailing in the Med so a cat won't be as satisfying around the coasts of Spain, Italy and Croatia however once you get past the Ionian and down into the Cyclades in Greece the strong winds make reaching between the islands good fun.

Crossing the pond with the trade winds will always be faster in a cat. I did the ARC 2 years ago and when we were going well at 7 -8 kts cats were doing12+.

Fontaine Pajot are everyone's favourite atm. I've skippered the 45 and its a great boat, just don't load it up with too much home from home stuff.

The Beneteau 5.1 is a very wide sterner boar not a great place to be when heeled and even lonelier in the middle of the Atlantic in a blow I suspect.

Personally I'd go for the cat if I had the money but 500k US dollars is underestimating the cost. 500k UK pounds ex taxes would maybe get you there if you're buying new.

Hope this helps
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:43   #69
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

In my experience long-term mooring cost in the Med is typically 1.5x the cost of a mono of the same length. Given a cat has much more room than a similar length mono this often gives an equal "cost per square meter".

Some marinas and harbours quote the same rate as for monohulls, but this is often only for promotions of relatively new marinas, or for winter storage, or for special brands (like club Lagoon).
Others like Menton charge 1.2x the monohull rate.

I have not yet seen a marina charge 2x monohull rate. I would certainly not stay there unless I really had to.
But that may very well be the case for transient berths in high season as it is much harder to accomodate a cat than a monohull. A marina may have 5 free berths when you arrive at the afternoon but these are likely spread across multiple pontoons. Nobody will move other boats to free 2 neighboring berths just to accommodate a catamaran.

I have to admit I have almost no experience with high season transient berths. We always stay at anchor. The boat sees a marine berth only when prepping before /after winter dry storage.
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Old 06-06-2022, 23:46   #70
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

In the med marina transient berths pricing has soared , approaching 100 euros a night for average monohulls
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Old 07-06-2022, 05:55   #71
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

I am still laughing about the “ mombo with a stick. Cats cost double to park in Great Lake clubs as far as I’m away. The one on the island a 52 Nautica they took out a dock to fit it.
I’m a huge fan of Beneteau and Jeanneau. I feel both of them are due for a 51 update. With Oceanis borrowing a hull from First the 54 Beneteau has set a new bar for the 51 to follow. Even the 460 and 40.1 have better planning hulls. Same is true with Jeanneau. The new 60 and the stellar 410 even better 440 making the 51 dated. Read carefully on hull construction. I’d be concerned about the sudden return of foam cores. Dufour Beneteau and Barvaria C line all very confident in their cored hulls. I’m old so I can recall some of the finest boat brands ever made delaminate from the foam hulls.
Just about every manufacture has some mystery attached to them. They have not stopped going bankrupt. Pick a brand with a future. I just learned all my Dinghy accessories were made in Ukraine in an area destroyed. Who knew !?
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Old 07-06-2022, 10:40   #72
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500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

Given the way pricing is going , unless you desperately want a cat , I’d stay away from them. I think there’s going to be an awful lot of bigger boats ( ie 40+) on the market in the med within 2 years as the “ ouch “ factor is getting painful. I’m quite pleased I downgraded from a 393 to a 36. We are entering a period of extended inflation and people have nothing seen this in 15 years.
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Old 07-06-2022, 11:52   #73
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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In the med marina transient berths pricing has soared , approaching 100 euros a night for average monohulls
Depends...
If you want to join the rich & famous (say Costa Smeralda, Mallorca, Ibiza) then of course 100 Euro is a normal price.

But there are other ports:
Port of Menton: 40 Euro for 12m mono in high season. Catamaran factor 1.2
Valencia: 21 Euro for 12m mono, catamaran factor 1.75
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Old 07-06-2022, 12:11   #74
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

We are spoiled in the Great Lakes. On the Canadian side Ontario Provincial parks have anchorage or tie ups dirt cheap. On our 150th birthday they were free!
Muggs Channel pictures water plug in and garbage 24$. Local clubs $45.00 except one club which will not answer the vhf.
Same goes for the 6 states. Don’t forget Indiana. State parks friendly ports and clubs. West coast of Mexico and Sea of Cortez is dirt cheap and very friendly.
Too bad some boat haunts and ski hills kill growth with crazy pricing
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Old 07-06-2022, 12:16   #75
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Re: 500K. Cat or monohull ? Ocean crossings. Med + Bahamas. Beneteau 51.1 ?

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We are spoiled in the Great Lakes. On the Canadian side Ontario Provincial parks have anchorage or tie ups dirt cheap. On our 150th birthday they were free!
Muggs Channel pictures water plug in and garbage 24$. Local clubs $45.00 except one club which will not answer the vhf.
Same goes for the 6 states. Don’t forget Indiana. State parks friendly ports and clubs. West coast of Mexico and Sea of Cortez is dirt cheap and very friendly.
Too bad some boat haunts and ski hills kill growth with crazy pricing
Rising prices seemingly need to go a lot higher to kill growth , 8 people on a 5K a week cat charter, don’t even notice €100 a night
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