44 Helia "sunk" in the Atlantic

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tornadosailing

Swim under the boat in rough seas at 3am? Short of eating a bullet, I'm not sure I can think of a faster way to kill yourself.

I think he meant swim inside the boat, which the skipper did when he tried to plug the hole with a cushion.

[tiopirata]

You are correct of course, there are no large mass produced cruising cats on the market today which meet such standards as would tempt me to buy them, none. I assure you that such is not a financial decision, it costs much the same at the retail end for rubbish as it does quality. There are a couple of excellent Schionnings which may behave as I would require, and the Barker 57 which recently sold, at 37 years old and capable of 220 mile a day averages, certainly does. Such vessels exist. I believe there are a couple of John Hughes cats out there too.... Yes, I can think of quite a few good performers which meet my criteria, but none from a modern mass builder.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

We have a Pdq 36 ,in production they had solid glass below the waterline. Several years ago one went on a rock on the east coast. When the tidecame up it floated off level but heeled with no water in the undamaged hull. The steering bar is outside the rear beam and above the rear crash box ,there is no connection between the to hulls except the main saloon and even when fitted with diesels there are water tight compartments on each corner

And that is a 25-year old design. They just need to DO IT. Unsinkability is a key virtue of cats; why do they give it up? For marketing.


The PDQs were really designed as sea boats.

[sailormed]

Originally Posted by Franziska

What a nightmare. I hope they could afford insurance. .......

If they can’t they bought one size to big, or it is a deliberate choice.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And that is a 25-year old design. They just need to DO IT. Unsinkability is a key virtue of cats; why do they give it up? For marketing.


The PDQs were really designed as sea boats.

We don’t know that this Hellia sunk!

And the cat (Lagoon? Leopard?) in Bundaberg also didn’t sink despite being flooded and was towed back to the marina and pumped out.

[Thumbs Up]

The fact that Allenrbrts had his escape hatch fail last year on the same model boat (Tornadosailing identified this one as an owners version from the photo) and because of the description of the location and size of the breach re-enforces my opinion that the glazing popped out of the $2200. (retail price) escape hatch. If true (I am no forensics expert), I think it would put the blame (I am no lawyer neither), on the Goiot company. Not the designer of the boat, nor FP, nor the skipper. But if I had a boat with Goiot escape hatches, (or any escape hatches) I would be taking a serious look at them right now. A question for Allenrbrts: Did you contact Goiot about this and what did they say? Also, it is a very good idea to add "hull checks" to you watch routines. I do have a bilge pump alarm but is not loud enough if things are really rockin and rollin. Finally all of this talk about how water can travel through the hulls and even cross over to the next hull has me thinking of ways to do safety inspections and custom modifications based on these ideas. As far as safety hatches at the waterline are concerned in general I have seen a lot of them that don't look to good for the wear. There must be a better way such as an all composite hatch with a very small viewing port. These hatches are partially submerging when the boat is underway but a lot of them don't look any different than standard deck hatches. (besides the fact that the bottom half is badly corroded from seawater)

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by 14murs14

I actually just spent several days fishing wires from the port engine compartment into the port hull between the liner and the hull and even sent a camera down there. It certainly isn't sealed above the level where the batteries sit, as that is where I was able to run the wiring. Just a gut feel but I'm guessing if the engine room flooded the water level would be above that and progressively flood into the aft cabin. They implicitly acknowledge that with the giant block of styrofoam under the aft bed. Based on the styrofoam throughout the boat it seems FP doesn't count on any compartment except the front crash compartments in the bow to be isolated, for example it appears the bilge runs under that otherwise apparently sealed compartment under the aft beds?

That confirms what I said. The engine bulkhead is sealed up to bridgedeck level. This is where the batteries are located and AFAIK there are no penetrations below that level.


If its just the engine room filling with water it won't sink the boat. The water will just rise to waterline levels and then some. At the end this will be just a few hundret liters (or kilograms). Hardly enough to depress the stern more than two fat mechanics and some tools.
Bridgedeck level is around 50 - 60cm above the waterline so no problem.


The crash compartments are all filled with closed cell foam, so it doesn't matter if the bilge runs under it. It can be compromised or punctured and that won't affect the amount of floatation.

I like the way FP built the Mahe. Shes just a tad small for carrying enough junk for crossing oceans.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

The fact that Allenrbrts had his escape hatch fail last year on the same model boat (Tornadosailing identified this one as an owners version from the photo) and because of the description of the location and size of the breach re-enforces my opinion that the glazing popped out of the $2200. (retail price) escape hatch. If true (I am no forensics expert), I think it would put the blame (I am no lawyer neither), on the Goiot company. Not the designer of the boat, nor FP, nor the skipper. But if I had a boat with Goiot escape hatches, (or any escape hatches) I would be taking a serious look at them right now. A question for Allenrbrts: Did you contact Goiot about this and what did they say? Also, it is a very good idea to add "hull checks" to you watch routines. I do have a bilge pump alarm but is not loud enough if things are really rockin and rollin. Finally all of this talk about how water can travel through the hulls and even cross over to the next hull has me thinking of ways to do safety inspections and custom modifications based on these ideas. As far as safety hatches at the waterline are concerned in general I have seen a lot of them that don't look to good for the wear. There must be a better way such as an all composite hatch with a very small viewing port. These hatches are partially submerging when the boat is underway but a lot of them don't look any different than standard deck hatches. (besides the fact that the bottom half is badly corroded from seawater)

On our 380 the escape hatch is of the fixed type. Break it with a hammer (no clue if that works). There is another hammer outside in the liferaft locker to get in. no clue how you could get there when turtled so we keep another one at the bow tied to the net.

Our escape hatches look like new inside and out. Nothing corroded or leaky. They do get submerged when underway, but they are recessed so hopefully won't be easily taken off by some floating junk.


Our Mahe had Goiot escape hatches but of a different type. No leaks, no problem, but being at the bow they were very expose to floating junk.


We don't do bilge checks underway. Our bilge alarm can wake the dead.

[tiopirata]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Then I guess you have to stick to small open bridgedeck cats like the GBE.
And next time you flood it get a pump :-)

I remind you that the GBE was one of 7, but all could perform similarly. Trimarans and catamarans. It's not rocket science. It's just good design and good construction. I am a yacht surveyor, designer and builder, also a structural engineer, I can tell you what is possible with some certainty of fact. I can also tell you, with equal certainty, that the best multihulls out there are not stock boats from a large scale manufacture.

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

The fact that Allenrbrts had his escape hatch fail last year on the same model boat (Tornadosailing identified this one as an owners version from the photo) and because of the description of the location and size of the breach re-enforces my opinion that the glazing popped out of the $2200. (retail price) escape hatch. If true (I am no forensics expert), I think it would put the blame (I am no lawyer neither), on the Goiot company. Not the designer of the boat, nor FP, nor the skipper. But if I had a boat with Goiot escape hatches, (or any escape hatches) I would be taking a serious look at them right now. A question for Allenrbrts: Did you contact Goiot about this and what did they say?

Here is my interaction with them last year:

M Allen Roberts,
I follow a request for after sales about one 49.42 hatch of 2013.
We never had that kind of issue on this panel and I'm surprised that both of
panels failed approximately at the same time.
Did something happen on the panels ?

This panels is the previous version. Now handles and frame are different.
I proposing to send you a new acrylic and a glue kit for reparation free, to
change it.

Where is the boat ?

Regards

David LE DUIGOU
Quality department
GOÏOT SYSTEMS

My reply:
David:

Thank you for the follow up.

My boat had two hatches. One developed a small leak between the glass and the frame. It also leaked at the handles. I purchased a new Goiot hatch and installed it in October 2017. The other hatch seemed fine and was not leaking so I didn't make any changes to it. In November 2017, we sailed from Norfolk Virginia to Antigua (2 week trip), 11 days in the second hatch unexpected failed. It seemed to happen without any notice, it didn't start with a small leak, we suddenly had water spraying into the boat between the frame and the acrylic. Given the forces involved, it would seem easy to have the entire acrylic fall out (only the handles left were holding the acrylic in the frame).

We made an emergency repair of the hatch to stop the leak and finished the sail to Antigua. Once in Antigua, we hauled the boat (second time in a month for a Goiot hatch problem) and replaced the hatch with a new Goiot hatch. I'm going to retro-fit both hatches with an aluminum bar that has blocks glued to the acrylic to prevent this from occurring again.

I'm not sure what the exact failure mechanism is. When I removed the glass from frame, I found the silicone was pretty well adhered to the aluminum but was very easily peeled from the acrylic. Perhaps the silicone degrades over time? I also noticed that coefficient of expansion between the acrylic and the aluminum are different, so temperature cycles could stress the joint and lead to failure. There was no mechanical stress of the acrylic from inside the boat pushing the panel out, the hatch that failed in the Atlantic is protected from anything inside the hull pushing the acrylic outwards. Perhaps the design the Fountain Pajot hull might lead to a negative forces (suction) pulling the acrylic from the frame. The hatch is recessed in the hull, so maybe that is possible.

What I do know is that frame is attached to the hull with 20 bolts, but the acrylic is only held in the frame with silicone glue and that glue does not bond well to acrylic. I don't understand why you haven't heard about failures, everybody seems to know these hatches are prone to leaks. What I didn't understand is the hatch can completely fail with potentially disastrous results.

For me, I have spent $6000 to replace the two hatches because of silicone failing to adhere to the acrylic panel. I don't need replacements, they are now new hatches. I would certainly love to be reimbursed for the replacements because of a design flaw in the hatch.

What I think Goiot should realize is the hatch has a serious design flaw and that boats are at risk. The fix is pretty easy, with about $20 of parts and some solvent glue the acrylic is unable to pull out of the frame. You should consider making this available to your customers so that somebody else doesn't have the same problem and have their boat at risk. My feeling is if acrylic had completely come out, we would have sunk with in an hour or two unless we could have somehow patched over the very large hole that is recessed in the hull.


I got no reply to my email. The email was also copied to the Fountaine Pajot dealer on the East Coast.

Allen

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by rabbi

On our 380 the escape hatch is of the fixed type. Break it with a hammer (no clue if that works). There is another hammer outside in the liferaft locker to get in. no clue how you could get there when turtled so we keep another one at the bow tied to the net.

I have seen the Lagoons with the breakable glass. What I don't know is how that glass is attached to the boat. I doubt it is bolted on. So how is it attached, is it just glued on like the Goiot hatch? If it is glassed into the hull or has a frame that is bolted to the hull I would feel okay, otherwise I would worry.

What I discovered that when the hatch started to fail, it was a nightmare to deal with. There is nothing to grab from inside the boat. We were in moderate seas with 20 knots of wind. Regularly the hatch was completely covered with water. The only solution was to go outside the boat (of course it had to be nighttime) and push the glass back into the frame with waterproof epoxy in the joint. It was not pretty being outside the boat under the bridge deck in the those conditions. After the glass was back in, we rigged the solution of wedging the glass to frame with a board glued to the glass so that more was holding it than just the epoxy.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

I have seen the Lagoons with the breakable glass. What I don't know is how that glass is attached to the boat. I doubt it is bolted on. So how is it attached, is it just glued on like the Goiot hatch? If it is glassed into the hull or has a frame that is bolted to the hull I would feel okay, otherwise I would worry.

It has a frame and is bolted & sealed (or glassed?) in place.

Some fellow replaced their old style opening hatches wih the new fixed ones, see here:

Boatyard Battles: Upgrading Lagoon Escape Hatches - The Larks of the Independence

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We don’t know that this Hellia sunk!

And the cat (Lagoon? Leopard?) in Bundaberg also didn’t sink despite being flooded and was towed back to the marina and pumped out.

I to have been annoyed at the head line the read multhull sinks and then show it floating in some manner . The discussion is the same and valid but the post name is misleading and or antagonistic

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by rabbi

It has a frame and is bolted & sealed (or glassed?) in place.

Some fellow replaced their old style opening hatches wih the new fixed ones, see here:

Boatyard Battles: Upgrading Lagoon Escape Hatches - The Larks of the Independence

What a great blog post! Replacing the Goiot hatch is not quite as bad, but it definitely ruined our Thanksgiving Day.

What I worry about is how that glass is held into the frame. To me it just looks like glue. I don't see anything passing through the glass holding it to the frame.

As a separate note, there is a post on the Chris White website about trying to break one of the glass pane escape hatches.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/25...verturned-boat

Here is a quote "Glen then went back to the escape hatch, took a fire extinguisher and hit the escape hatch but it did not break. Later he found the special hammer and beat on the glass with that and still could not break the tempered glass."

I'm not knocking the Lagoon solution, but I would check to be sure I knew how secure that glass is to the frame. Unfortunately with glass you can't use solvent glue to weld a block onto the lens on the inside for a solution like I did for the Goiot hatch.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by rabbi

It has a frame and is bolted & sealed (or glassed?) in place.

Some fellow replaced their old style opening hatches wih the new fixed ones, see here:

Boatyard Battles: Upgrading Lagoon Escape Hatches - The Larks of the Independence

Looks to be glazed to the frame with silicone just like any other hatch. But, like every deadlight you see in the hull of a mono that is held on with silicone and doesn't fall out, I'm guessing it isn't a real issue.

It's easy enough to pull the hatch acrylic and redo the silicone that maybe it should be added to the maintenance list every few years.



Matt