2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by smj

I can think of 6 Geminis that have flipped of hand. The locations were SF Bay, Seattle, Mississippi, Naples Fl, Jacksonville Fl. and now the one in England.

My opinion is that it's less to do with the boat and more to do operator error. I think in general more newbies are buying cats, especially Gems. Many don't learn first on small boats and monos where you learn to reef earlier and how to ease sheets readily when overpowered. A cruising cat can give a false sense of security when overpowered, and Gems are too narrow to outright prevent capsize.

[barnakiel]

Their advertising makes me think of McGregors.

Seen a bigger proper cruising cat upside down - she was actually floating with both hulls well clear of the water - looked very very stable ;-). I think the pictures were taken at least a week after the accident. That one WAS a safe rescue platform.

So it looks like not all cruising cats were designed equal ;-(

b.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Their advertising makes me think of McGregors.

Seen a bigger proper cruising cat upside down - she was actually floating with both hulls well clear of the water - looked very very stable ;-). I think the pictures were taken at least a week after the accident. That one WAS a safe rescue platform.

So it looks like not all cruising cats were designed equal ;-(

b.

Well, they are designed as a great coastal and shallow water cruising cat. You trade off true blue water capability for ability to get in ultrathin water and normal slips. In exchange you get a cat with low bridgedeck clearance that is very sensitive to payload. But the price get folks in.

I for one am jealous of the shoal draft, but I'll take the sailing sensation (tiller steered!) and heavy weather capabillity, as well as rugged build quality of my mono. i also bought it for a tenth of the price of a new gemini.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by malbert73

My opinion is that it's less to do with the boat and more to do operator error. I think in general more newbies are buying cats, SNIP

To some extent this incident operator error contributed to this incident. But I don't think these guys were newbies. Usually races like this are not all that attractive to newbies, especially in this weather. In the vid it looks like the spinnaker sheet was let go fairly quickly, not so sure about the main sheet. I would guess what happened was the windward hull started flying off the crest of a wave and when the trough was below the hull the wind caught the boat. Probably a combination of bad luck with the wind and waves combining to get a flying windward hull to high. Not to mention this was a race and skipper was taking chances.

A lot of folks would be sailing with a storm jib and at least a double reef in the main, I doubt a Gemini would have any danger of capsize in those conditions with that rig.

[Mr B]

Due to ignorance, inexperience and straight out stupidty, For want of better terms,

I came out of Fiji heading for Australia, Single handed,

I was in 7 metre waves, Beam on, Vertical waves not rollers, I was loaded down to the hilt, But I had leveled the boat to the Plimsol line before leaving Fiji,

I had both centre boards down fully, Full main and full Genoa, I soon discovered my Folly,

With the Lee centre board down, The Gemini digs in and doesnt allow the Gemini to slip side ways through the water,

I was at 70 degrees, Beam on, Yes, I **** myself, not literaly, The windward hull didnt lift, probably because of my excessive weight,

But once I lifted the lee centre board, and just had the windward side down, I had no further problems with my Gemini all the way home, It was just a very comfortable ride,

I came through some very bad weather, At least 10 metre waves, They were above my top spreader and thats 10 metres above the deck,
I also had the cock pit knee deep full of water twice, But that was due to huge rollers going in two directions at the same time,
I let out a bit more Genoa the first time, A bit more speed did the trick, Stopped it coming over the transom,

19 days, 24/7 3000 NMiles, I learned to sail her in all conditions, across 3 oceans,
Pacific ocean, Coral Sea and the Tasman sea.

The wind was constantly North North West, I wanted to go South South West.

I lost a lot of time and gained extra miles due to sleep,
Night time, I dropped the drive leg, using that as a drogue, A small bit of Genoa, no main, Windward centre board down fully,
We sailed due north, Running in front of the waves,
Then the next day, I had to make up that ground lost during the night, By sailing South as much as I could,
Depending on the wave height, about 30 degrees to the waves,

Other than that one very scary moment, My own fault with out doubt,

I have found the Gemini to be an extremely safe boat, In all conditions,

Very sea worthy, The safest boat I have ever sailed in,

You do not travel with the lee board down in any sea conditions, I didnt any way,

The boards down are for parking in Marina's where they give you marvellous steerage,

Racing is a totally different story, where they take every thing to the limit, and then some,
The piccy is the companys recommended reefing points,

I am not a racer, I want to get my boat and myself home safely, So I sailed my Gemini accordingly.
But I did crack 14 knots at one stage when all my instruments were still working,
But I only had the Genoa up, and the wind was howling, at the time,

A passing ship told me we were having force 6 winds on one of the calmer days,

Cheers,
Brian,

[smj]

I think a better term would be you are an adventurer. Not a bad average speed either!

[Bruce626]

malbert73 asked "Now, does anyone have any real world experience with the water bottle flotation system? An intriguing idea for unballasted craft? ==> Not exactly, but my catamaran has two large crash spaces in the bows which have a deck hatch. My designer/builder, Nigel Roberts, said that he had filled them with capped plastic bottles and then nailed the hatch shut. In forty years of cruising he didn't say that he ever hit something hard enough to put a hole in the boat, so I suppose that this is still theoretical - but he seemed to think that the idea had merit.

[Mr B]

When I got washed up onto the beach at Broughton Island,
I pumped my Fresh water tanks out to use as flotation tanks,

They hold 60 gallons, 2 X 30 gallon tanks, Good idea, and it would have helped,
But they wern't fixed to the floor and just floated,

They will be fixed down solidly when my boat is repaired,

Make sure your pumps can pump the water out that is coming in,
I had six 1/2 inch pumps and a manual 1.5 inch pump, all going,

They were Absolutely Bloody useless,
You need to pump a minimum of 40 gallons a minute,

Thats just for a 3 inch hole in your boat, Thru hulls are 3 inch approx,

You do have time to operate the pumps, The boat just doesnt sink like a stone, with a hole in it,

If your battery bank gets covered in water from being low down in the hulls,
They are Kaput immediately, The water shorts them out, so you will have no power to run electric pumps,

Just some thing for you all to ponder over, I learnt the hard way, So be prepared,

Fill any spare holes low down that you dont use with that expandable air foam, it stops the water getting in, It may help you stay afloat,

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by smj

I can think of 6 Geminis that have flipped of hand. The locations were SF Bay, Seattle, Mississippi, Naples Fl, Jacksonville Fl. and now the one in England.

Well............OOPS!

I thought some of them were "just" sinkings.

[Therapy]

Anyone got an update?

Seems as though by now someone would know particulars of the event.

[Sand crab]

I always thought the Gems were a little narrow in the overall beam which makes them a little tippy. There is a standard rule of thumb where the overall beam should be about 50% of the overall length. The Gems are among the narrowest or the narrowest at around 42% mainly so they will tuck into a standard slip. At the other end are the South African cats which are usually really beamy with up to 60%. And FWIW the popular L380 is around 56%. Many other factors affect stability as well and we could beat that topic to death as has been done many times here. And for some reason large cats start having smaller ratios but I've never understood why this is less of an issue for them but that's another thread.
Nontheless the Gems are a great value and hard to beat but for offshore sailing I would prefer something in that size range like the Seawind 1000 but it's a lot more money.

[webejammin]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I always thought the Gems were a little narrow in the overall beam which makes them a little tippy. There is a standard rule of thumb where the overall beam should be about 50% of the overall length. The Gems are among the narrowest or the narrowest at around 42% mainly so they will tuck into a standard slip. At the other end are the South African cats which are usually really beamy with up to 60%. And FWIW the popular L380 is around 56%. Many other factors affect stability as well and we could beat that topic to death as has been done many times here. And for some reason large cats start having smaller ratios but I've never understood why this is less of an issue for them but that's another thread.
Nontheless the Gems are a great value and hard to beat but for offshore sailing I would prefer something in that size range like the Seawind 1000 but it's a lot more money.

I'm wondering what this has to do about racing around the island and this accident ? We looked at the Seawind 1000 before we bought or Gemini and it would have been a great cat but no secure salon exept for a canvas wall not counting about double the price which puts it in the 40 ft cat price range and built for the tropics only

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by webejammin

I'm wondering what this has to do about racing around the island and this accident ? We looked at the Seawind 1000 before we bought or Gemini and it would have been a great cat but no secure salon exept for a canvas wall not counting about double the price which puts it in the 40 ft cat price range and built for the tropics only

The point I was trying to make is because of the Gems narrow beam in relation to hull length is that generous restraint should be used while racing especially in those conditions.
I still like the boat for what it is which is a well thought out pocket cruiser with retractable daggerboards that work. And ya can't beat the price.

[webejammin]

I would guess the owner and crew are so ashmed of flipping there Gemini 105Mc that we will not hear what happened ever, especially if it was the crew's falt, not counting the cost and time of cleaning up an upside down boat .

[foolishsailor]

I love tri's - don't own one, but have sailed a few and they are rockets.

Only problem with them, besides the difficulty in creating living space on a tri, is that they perform so well in heavy conditions that they lead a driver into a false sense of security. You don't know, or forget, the seriousness of the conditions you are in because the platform is so stable that you can be so overpowered and not know it until suddenly almost without warning you are in deep ****, and then it's too late.

That's how you can tell an experienced tri sailor, he starts depowering and every other sailor on the boat is scratching his head and wondering why cause it feels so safe and stable...

...these lads, pushed too hard and paid for it. But as a fellow racer I would have been pushing too, maybe I would have had someone full time sitting on the main and spin sheets though, maybe even the vang as well. Just sitting, waiting for that tiny moment when you have an option before the tipping point.