2002 lagoon 410

[Xtalpowell]

I'm assuming there is a significant import tax on new boats.

Good luck. What makes are you looking at? I have always liked island packet boats. If I were to buy a monohull that's what it would be.

[Xtalpowell]

Lee. Thanks for the lightning strike info. I did not even think to ask if that was the reason for replacing the electrical panels. I just thought the owner replaced them due to age.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Xtalpowell

I'm assuming there is a significant import tax on new boats.



Good luck. What makes are you looking at? I have always liked island packet boats. If I were to buy a monohull that's what it would be.

Import duty is only 1.5% - for now

I'm looking at 2-4 year old production boats - I think that's where the value is and I don't want the immediate maintenance headache. Dufour 410GL is likely top choice. Originally I wanted a cat, but then decided to look at simpler/cheaper boats. But in a few years I'd consider upgrading to a new model Outremer 45.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Import duty is only 1.5% - for now

I'm looking at 2-4 year old production boats - I think that's where the value is and I don't want the immediate maintenance headache. Dufour 410GL is likely top choice. Originally I wanted a cat, but then decided to look at simpler/cheaper boats. But in a few years I'd consider upgrading to a new model Outremer 45.

Also could keep it a foreign boat and never pay the duty. But 1.5% is no big deal.

[surf_sail]

Also I recommend reading www.thenomadtrip.com. It's an excellent blog and goes into details about buying a similar vintage lagoon and some of the maintenance issues to look out for.

[rabbi]

The boat you are looking at is 15 years old now. We sold our 1999 Lagoon 410 in 2012 in a direct deal without broker.
So she was 13 years old, a 4 cabin / 2 head layout in very good condition with tons of equipment (watermaker, genset, AC, dive compressor, etc).

Our contract was in Euro, but if I remember correctly the US based buyer paid around 195k USD. And that was relatively cheap (boat was on the market less than two weeks).

Price have been pretty stable, so I very much doubt you could get any Lagoon 410 owners version in excellent condition for 160k.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by rabbi

The boat you are looking at is 15 years old now. We sold our 1999 Lagoon 410 in 2012 in a direct deal without broker.

So she was 13 years old, a 4 cabin / 2 head layout in very good condition with tons of equipment (watermaker, genset, AC, dive compressor, etc).



Our contract was in Euro, but if I remember correctly the US based buyer paid around 195k USD. And that was relatively cheap (boat was on the market less than two weeks).



Price have been pretty stable, so I very much doubt you could get any Lagoon 410 owners version in excellent condition for 160k.

In April 2013 the euro was worth 1.303 USD now it is 1.088. The drop in euros alone is worth about 20% since these boats are almost always priced in euros (and mfg in euros) Furthermore oil prices have gone down by approx 50% during the last 2 years (100 per brl to 50 per brl now) hence the actual costs to manufacturers have decreased - this likely was passed on in terms of lower new prices (but I don't have data on this so I'm not sure it was. If someone has list prices of a Bene 40.1 in 2013 I could compare).

I think both new and used boat prices in the US do not yet reflect the lower euro price hence the big discrepancy between US/EU boats. Also the economic recovery for the top 5% is certainly also supporting boat sales in the US (Europe has remained depressed). I anticipate that the the euro will stay low and dollar could rise further with fed tightening. Couple that with a potentially(overdue) recession in the US and we'll see major depreciation for US boats. Buyer beware....

Are your "buyers brokers" telling you how "stable" boat prices have been?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

In April 2013 the euro was worth 1.303 USD now it is 1.088. The drop in euros alone is worth about 20% since these boats are almost always priced in euros (and mfg in euros)

That depends on the point of view. Which currency is the leading currency for boats? For commodities like gold or oil thats clearly the USD.
But for boats? I guess we have a more local market. Boats in europe use the Euro for pricing, boats in the US the USD, and carribean boats are a mixture of both.

In todays money the 2012 final selling price of our L410 would be around 160k USD. But today my asking price for a 13year old L410 would be higher than it was back in 2012.

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Furthermore oil prices have gone down by approx 50% during the last 2 years (100 per brl to 50 per brl now) hence the actual costs to manufacturers have decreased - this likely was passed on in terms of lower new prices (but I don't have data on this so I'm not sure it was. If someone has list prices of a Bene 40.1 in 2013 I could compare).
I think both new and used boat prices in the US do not yet reflect the lower euro price hence the big discrepancy between US/EU boats. Also the economic recovery for the top 5% is certainly also supporting boat sales in the US (Europe has remained depressed). I anticipate that the the euro will stay low and dollar could rise further with fed tightening. Couple that with a potentially(overdue) recession in the US and we'll see major depreciation for US boats. Buyer beware....

I don't have a crystal ball so no clue how the markets will develop.
But the oil price doesn't have much impact on a boats price. How much % of the total selling price of a cat is in the resin? Not much. Most of it is labor, equipment, marketing, etc.

But I have never seen a cat's list price being lowered. It has increased in most years and was stable in a few recession years, at least for Lagoon and FP cats (I don't care much about others, and I don't have other price lists). Typical increase has been 2-4% per year for the base price, and options have often increased more.

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Are your "buyers brokers" telling you how "stable" boat prices have been?

No. I never used a broker.
But I have owned 3 cats since 2011. A Lagoon 410, a FP Mahe and now a Lagoon 380. I have visited around 8-10 similar boats throughout Europe and the caribbean for each one that I bought. And according to my wife I spend far too much time monitoring the market. So I think I have a good idea of the market.

Based on my own buying / selling experience the market prices have been quite stable. A 5 year old Lagoon 380 is now asking more than a 5 year old Lagoon 380 back in 2010.
A five year old back in 2010 was almost the price of a 10year old now.
Back in 2010 a 5 year old Lagoon 380 S2 was around 160-170k Euro, and now 7 years later these boats sell for 150-160k if still in good condition. Very few sell lower, and those that do typically have significant issues and many years of charter history.

I am European citizen so all prices are including VAT as thats what my cost. Of course I only keep an eye on a few ~40ft cat models that I am interested in. Other manufacturers or monohulls may be completely different - I just don't know.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by rabbi

That depends on the point of view. Which currency is the leading currency for boats? For commodities like gold or oil thats clearly the USD.
But for boats? I guess we have a more local market. Boats in europe use the Euro for pricing, boats in the US the USD, and carribean boats are a mixture of both.

In todays money the 2012 final selling price of our L410 would be around 160k USD. But today my asking price for a 13year old L410 would be higher than it was back in 2012.


I don't have a crystal ball so no clue how the markets will develop.
But the oil price doesn't have much impact on a boats price. How much % of the total selling price of a cat is in the resin? Not much. Most of it is labor, equipment, marketing, etc.

But I have never seen a cat's list price being lowered. It has increased in most years and was stable in a few recession years, at least for Lagoon and FP cats (I don't care much about others, and I don't have other price lists). Typical increase has been 2-4% per year for the base price, and options have often increased more.



No. I never used a broker.
But I have owned 3 cats since 2011. A Lagoon 410, a FP Mahe and now a Lagoon 380. I have visited around 8-10 similar boats throughout Europe and the caribbean for each one that I bought. And according to my wife I spend far too much time monitoring the market. So I think I have a good idea of the market.

Based on my own buying / selling experience the market prices have been quite stable. A 5 year old Lagoon 380 is now asking more than a 5 year old Lagoon 380 back in 2010.
A five year old back in 2010 was almost the price of a 10year old now.
Back in 2010 a 5 year old Lagoon 380 S2 was around 160-170k Euro, and now 7 years later these boats sell for 150-160k if still in good condition. Very few sell lower, and those that do typically have significant issues and many years of charter history.

I am European citizen so all prices are including VAT as thats what my cost. Of course I only keep an eye on a few ~40ft cat models that I am interested in. Other manufacturers or monohulls may be completely different - I just don't know.

In Euro terms I agree with you. The price has been stable. The majority of sailboats are built in France so Euro is the base currency for the market. I'm not the only one making this claim:

http://www.multihullcompany.com/Arti...n_Depreciation

Also just look at the percentage of boats priced in Euros on yachtworld.

However, for those of us with majority USD assets. The price of Europe based and euro priced boats new and used have decreased significantly. USD priced boats in the US (new and used) have not caught up yet, hence creating the arbitrage opportunity.

I'm happy to send you the quotes, but a 2017 Bene Oceania 41.1 base model dealer code 1xd1 (no options, shipping, commissioning vat) is listed at 145.7k euro in Munich March 2017. The same dealer code from a US dealer is 207.4k USD. The Munich boat is built in France, the Us one in NC, but they are identical (other than electric, etc.)

161k USD vs 207k USD (and the Europe boat was only 150ish USD before the French election)

This arbitrage opportunity won't last forever. Back in 2008-2010 people were buying boats in the US and shipping to Europe. I'm sure the flow has/will reverse putting stress on US used prices. I doubt that Beneteau will reduce prices of their US made boats (since their costs are in dollars). But in the next US recession I bet they'll have to (and maybe stop NC production).

My understanding is that resin is a big cost component of total boat value. If someone knows how much exactly I'd love to hear. (If guess it's 15% so 50% oil pice decrease would be 7.5% boat cost decrease) But my guess is that the oil price decrease hasn't reduced new boat prices but instead has increased mfg margins. Assuming the manufacturers were smart enough to contract their resin indexed to oil prices - otherwise their supplier is keeping the savings....

I think the market price movements are likely very similar for monohulls and cats. If one buys a boat now at elevated US prices one should expect above historical average depreciation.

[Xtalpowell]

We spoke with the owner of the 410 yesterday and negotiated the price some more. Also should have the reply from the bank by tomorrow on the financing. We decided to go with Essex for our boat loan.
It's looking like a survey and test sail could be happening in a week or so. We are excited that this lagoon may be ours soon.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Xtalpowell

We spoke with the owner of the 410 yesterday and negotiated the price some more. Also should have the reply from the bank by tomorrow on the financing. We decided to go with Essex for our boat loan.

It's looking like a survey and test sail could be happening in a week or so. We are excited that this lagoon may be ours soon.

Exciting! I've heard that banks typically won't finance more than the BucValue amount for the loan any chance you can comment how BucValue closely matches the transaction price and loan value?

Thanks

[valhalla360]

Assuming you are bringing a boat back home, make sure to factor in the cost of converting the electrical system to local volatage/hertz.

You might live with the wrong electrical for a short trip but if you plan to keep the boat for years, you want it to match the local supply.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Assuming you are bringing a boat back home, make sure to factor in the cost of converting the electrical system to local volatage/hertz.

You might live with the wrong electrical for a short trip but if you plan to keep the boat for years, you want it to match the local supply.

Valhalla you're right this is a potential concern. It's also not so easy to convert a 220 boat to 110 (better the other way around). The way I see it though is for me boats of this size should be sailed world cruising capable anyways. For world cursing I'd rather have 220 because that's most common outside the US/Canada. So one way or the other I need to be able to deal with two voltages/frequencies.

Mostly I see it as an issue with resale, but likely not a 20-30% of value issue.

What I find rather amusing is that Beneteau has a whole website dedicated to why you can't buy in Europe and ship to the U.S. Their description makes it seem impossible - yet we know for most builders they only mfg in France anyways. Beneteau making this website tells me there is already a lot of arbitrage taking place.

http://www.beneteau.com/us/news/pitf...ew-boat-europe

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Assuming you are bringing a boat back home, make sure to factor in the cost of converting the electrical system to local volatage/hertz.

You might live with the wrong electrical for a short trip but if you plan to keep the boat for years, you want it to match the local supply.

Our L410 was sold as 220v and the new owner planned to keep her that way.
Converting a genset, AC, watermaker, dive compressor, water heater, charger/inverter, etc would have cost a fortune.

If you plan on anchoring out mostly there is no need to convert as you will live on solar and the 220v genset anyway.

[Xtalpowell]

Latest on our negotiations for the 410
The owner says 219,000 is as low as he will go right now.
I registered on the bucvalu and when I plugged in the boat info it came back with 194k to 211k. I did not pay for the pro version so my info is limited.
I've been in touch with two lenders and Essex has not gotten back to me yet and the sales person at Viking told me that they need a survey with the fair market value to come up with a number for financing.
The surveyor is happy to do a survey but repeated that if you can't come to terms with the owner before the survey then you probably just paid 1,400 for nothing.
It's a bit frustrating to say the least and if I calculated right then at a purchase price of 210k the Florida sales tax will be 14,700