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Old 23-01-2020, 07:19   #1
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pirate 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Sailing close hauled on our Nautitech 441 my wife commented as I trimmed the jib that the sound as I cranked on the jib sheet over the hardtop of the cabin was similar to tuning a large bass guitar. I do not have electric winches for the jib sheets and am only now adding at great expense a powered winch to replace the primary winch at the helm. Rather than go to the expense of upgrading these winches I was considering following James Wharram's advice and go to 2:1 for the sheet to reduce the load. Yes the sheet will be a lot longer but the loads will be much less. I am not racing (unless there is another boat in sight).

Has anyone tried this?
Are there any sailors on this forum that have an opinion? LOL
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Old 23-01-2020, 07:46   #2
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

I do some racing on 23' Sonar one designs and the jib sheet is set up this way....
It works fine, there are no winches and the sheet load is cut in half.

One end of the sheet is anchored to an eye on the front of the jib sheet car. The sheet runs to the clew of the jib where it goes thru a turning block and then back to the block on the car. Thru the block on the car and then to a turning block on the cabin top and to a cleat.

Something like this should work for you.
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Old 23-01-2020, 09:18   #3
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Interesting idea. The sheet loads on cats over 40 is large. Even with electric winches, they sound wicked when loaded up. But even on the older cats I move, I have not seen signs that the sheets were overloaded.

Curious, are you reefing as directed?

The negative of 2:1 is that a single jib sheet can get fouled, a 2:1 doubles the likelihood.

Gonna watch this thread!
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Old 23-01-2020, 11:29   #4
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Interesting idea. The sheet loads on cats over 40 is large. Even with electric winches, they sound wicked when loaded up. But even on the older cats I move, I have not seen signs that the sheets were overloaded.

Curious, are you reefing as directed?

The negative of 2:1 is that a single jib sheet can get fouled, a 2:1 doubles the likelihood.

Gonna watch this thread!
We were sailing in 18 knots of apparent wind. It is right on the edge of the recommendations. I reefed as soon as I saw 20. But even partially furled and back at 18 kts is was still highly loaded. I would like to make it easier for my wife to trim the sail herself. I plan to replace the 2011 vintage Harken genoa cars with new ones. There is too much wear on the old ones, and the new design should reduce the wear. I was planning to secure the end of the sheets to the old fairleads then through blocks on the clew and lead them back through the new cars. The old cars had vertical rollers that jam and wear. The new cars have only 1 roller and pivot. Step 1 is to see how much it is improved by replacing the fairlead. Step 2 is to go 2:1
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Old 23-01-2020, 12:36   #5
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Many of us have used 2:1 sheeting on smaller boats without winches. We're interested to see where you end up. But it does add some complications.


  • Where to deadend the second leg. The forward pull on the car will be too great, so perhaps a pad eye. This will also reduce the range of fore-aft adjustment.
  • Barber hauling. It makes this more complicated too. Unless the dead leg and the running leg run parallel and very close, it makes it very difficult.
  • Pair of blocks banging around. There will be a pair of high load blocks banging around when you tack, and if the sail is flogging, you better be nowhere near them.
  • A LOT more sheet length in the cockpit. Determine (mark the rope) how much sheet you move during a tack. It will double. And all that for a few feet you need to grind in on a tack. Boats that use 2:1 sheets nearly always (I can't think of an exception) run continuous sheets. Can you rig a continuous genoa sheet?
  • Length tacking. Normally, if you time it right and bring the sheet across at the right time, you can catch it just when it fills with zero grinding. It's all about timing. You reduce the number of turns on the working winch, put one turn on the new winch (more than one is asking for overrides when hauling fast), and release the working sheet just as the jib breaks or backs (depending on the boat). You then haul like mad so that you have the slack out just as the wind fills the jib on the new tack. One turn will hold for a moment, and you quickly stack on a few more (no winch handle yet). With 2:1 sheeting, on a larger boat, I bet you can't haul fast enough with 2:1 sheeting. On a dinghy you can. It's not about strength, it's about pulling the clew across when there is no wind in the sail. Timing.
It may just be one of those things that does not scale up well.
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Old 23-01-2020, 14:58   #6
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

I think thin water nailed the downsides.

FWIW, on a delivery I reef cats 2-5 knots below what the manufacturer calls for. Especially if the jib sheet is older- still looks okay but not new- I just donít like the sound of them fully loaded.

Still waiting to hear if anyone has done this. If it was my boat, I would call the manufacturer or post on that forum.
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Old 23-01-2020, 16:19   #7
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
I think thin water nailed the downsides.

FWIW, on a delivery I reef cats 2-5 knots below what the manufacturer calls for. Especially if the jib sheet is older- still looks okay but not new- I just donít like the sound of them fully loaded.

Still waiting to hear if anyone has done this. If it was my boat, I would call the manufacturer or post on that forum.
If only the manufacturer would respond to my emails, but nothing so far. I agree With the post which said dead ending on the spare car will be to much load. Will have to resort to a padeye. Unlike some newer cats with big overlapping jibs the Nautitech has a fairly small jib. The sheets are 2 years old. As I mentioned first I will replace the worn and binding genoa cars with the new model from Harken.
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Old 23-01-2020, 16:21   #8
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Old and new design
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Old 24-01-2020, 05:06   #9
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Many of us have used 2:1 sheeting on smaller boats without winches. We're interested to see where you end up. But it does add some complications.


  • Where to deadend the second leg. The forward pull on the car will be too great, so perhaps a pad eye. This will also reduce the range of fore-aft adjustment.
  • Barber hauling. It makes this more complicated too. Unless the dead leg and the running leg run parallel and very close, it makes it very difficult.
  • Pair of blocks banging around. There will be a pair of high load blocks banging around when you tack, and if the sail is flogging, you better be nowhere near them.
  • A LOT more sheet length in the cockpit. Determine (mark the rope) how much sheet you move during a tack. It will double. And all that for a few feet you need to grind in on a tack. Boats that use 2:1 sheets nearly always (I can't think of an exception) run continuous sheets. Can you rig a continuous genoa sheet?
  • Length tacking. Normally, if you time it right and bring the sheet across at the right time, you can catch it just when it fills with zero grinding. It's all about timing. You reduce the number of turns on the working winch, put one turn on the new winch (more than one is asking for overrides when hauling fast), and release the working sheet just as the jib breaks or backs (depending on the boat). You then haul like mad so that you have the slack out just as the wind fills the jib on the new tack. One turn will hold for a moment, and you quickly stack on a few more (no winch handle yet). With 2:1 sheeting, on a larger boat, I bet you can't haul fast enough with 2:1 sheeting. On a dinghy you can. It's not about strength, it's about pulling the clew across when there is no wind in the sail. Timing.
It may just be one of those things that does not scale up well.
All excellent questions. I can't be sure till I am back at the boat and trying a few things, but I will consider each before I go through the cost of implementing 2:1 sheets. I will post more in March or April after I have a chance to replace the high friction fairlead cars. The gauges from wear on the rollers show they have not rolled in a long time. This is certainly making it harder to trim the sail.

1) A padeye will be needed as you suggest
2) My current barberhauler snatch block will not work. Never seen a double snatch block but it might exist.
3) The clew is about very high and I can't reach it without dropping the sail. Using Carbo blocks and Dyneema in place of shackles will help keep it light.
4) There is a huge locker next to the helm on the 441 for sheet tails. No problem here. Also with 1/2 the load I should be able to go down in diameter on the sheets.
5) Yes, it could take longer to tack and trim.
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Old 24-01-2020, 05:07   #10
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

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Originally Posted by CaptRehab View Post
Sailing close hauled -----snipped all the good stuff---- I am not racing (unless there is another boat in sight).

Has anyone tried this?
Are there any sailors on this forum that have an opinion? LOL

I can't help myself; this is the funniest thing I've read in some time!
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Old 24-01-2020, 06:51   #11
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRehab View Post
All excellent questions. I can't be sure till I am back at the boat and trying a few things, but I will consider each before I go through the cost of implementing 2:1 sheets. I will post more in March or April after I have a chance to replace the high friction fairlead cars. The gauges from wear on the rollers show they have not rolled in a long time. This is certainly making it harder to trim the sail.

1) A padeye will be needed as you suggest
2) My current barberhauler snatch block will not work. Never seen a double snatch block but it might exist.
3) The clew is about very high and I can't reach it without dropping the sail. Using Carbo blocks and Dyneema in place of shackles will help keep it light.
4) There is a huge locker next to the helm on the 441 for sheet tails. No problem here. Also with 1/2 the load I should be able to go down in diameter on the sheets.
5) Yes, it could take longer to tack and trim.

No double snatch block. What is normally used is a fiddle block, with the standing part (not moving) riding on the fiddle. Another option is to deflect only on the lines; you will lose some range, but it should work with a cat.


I would definitely use lashed blocks. Less metal banging around.


I may just play with this, just for fun. I'm pretty sure I can rig it on my tri without changing anything but knots. In fact, I prefer continuous sheets; no tangles, no coiling.
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Old 27-01-2020, 08:43   #12
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

Is this for the noise alone?

If so: if the system is in good shape and the risk of failure nominal, how often are you getting the conditions for the noise and is the hassle of all that line on every deployment worth the occasional noise reduction.

Personally, I use the audible feedback of line tension as a measure of load.
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Old 27-01-2020, 09:17   #13
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Re: 2:1 Genoa Sheeting

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Is this for the noise alone?

If so: if the system is in good shape and the risk of failure nominal, how often are you getting the conditions for the noise and is the hassle of all that line on every deployment worth the occasional noise reduction.

Personally, I use the audible feedback of line tension as a measure of load.
The sound is not a problem. I want my wife to be able to trim the genoa, After surgery on each shoulder I too would like to make it easier to trim. I dont wanít to spend another $20k to import and install 2 more powered winches. Installing one for the primary was enough for me.
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